Are the REAL oldtimers overrated?

[Humean]

People tend to fall in love with the area that they study. Perhaps Callis and others like him just want others to care about these fighters too. I do think it is crazy to think those guys are anywhere near as good as later fighters. Contrary to what is said by those who love those old timers I think that if the film footage was better we'd see far clearer just how limited they were by the standards of today.

[Ray Corso]

Sullivan to Corbett was the same era but there was a huge difference between the men.
Jack Johnson was the "modern" Corbett and it served him well but he was one of one in the skills department then.
Dempsey was the reincarnation of Sullivan except a completely different method with different techniques, none the less a puncher looking to win by KO!Mixed in after Johnson and with Dempsey is Tunney the newer version of Corbett.
Lurking at this time is a future trainer named Blackburn who is a student of both styles the boxer and the puncher. He finds a young man in Louis who has youth, size and the ability to perform as a boxer/puncher! The "Modern Era" is born and from Louis comes other trainers and fighters that incorperate boxing skills with movement and balance for power punching. The greatest comes along in 1940 and he's quickly known as "Sugar"!
Since that era the Methods & Techniques remain the same in this era known as the "Current Era"! hahahaha. The biggest differences from the Modern Era and the Current Era is the bordum tolerated in the ring today. There are more counter punchers and back leg hangers these dayswho prefer to play it safe
and rely on their own matchmaking to get them over!

The Era's are very different and they've produced very different mentalities in
the fighters and the fans.
As far as a trainer teaching a young man how to box nothing has changed!

Ray Corso

[The Old LefHook]

Sullivan to Corbett was the same era but there was a huge difference between the men.
Jack Johnson was the "modern" Corbett and it served him well but he was one of one in the skills department then.
Dempsey was the reincarnation of Sullivan except a completely different method with different techniques, none the less a puncher looking to win by KO!Mixed in after Johnson and with Dempsey is Tunney the newer version of Corbett.
Lurking at this time is a future trainer named Blackburn who is a student of both styles the boxer and the puncher. He finds a young man in Louis who has youth, size and the ability to perform as a boxer/puncher! The "Modern Era" is born and from Louis comes other trainers and fighters that incorperate boxing skills with movement and balance for power punching. The greatest comes along in 1940 and he's quickly known as "Sugar"!
Since that era the Methods & Techniques remain the same in this era known as the "Current Era"! hahahaha. The biggest differences from the Modern Era and the Current Era is the bordum tolerated in the ring today. There are more counter punchers and back leg hangers these dayswho prefer to play it safe
and rely on their own matchmaking to get them over!

The Era's are very different and they've produced very different mentalities in
the fighters and the fans.
As far as a trainer teaching a young man how to box nothing has changed!

Ray Corso

What do you think of Dempsey's belief that the knockout punch must be taught to aspiring fighters first, before they develop the habit of hanging on the back foot and throwing pitty-pat jabs worring about their pretty mugs?

Have you known any other trainers with that philosophy?

[Bundana]

When I look at Tracy Callis' top-10, I can't help but think back to good old Nat Fleischer! I don't believe (and please correct me, if I'm wrong) he ever published a p4p list, but he did have an all-time top-10 for each of the 8 original/classic divisions... and in these he was just as biased in favour of the old-timers as Callis is today!

Now Mr. Fleischer of course more or less grew up with those turn-of-the-century fighters he loved so much, so naturally age-bias played a large part in his ranking of boxers... which is understandable, as we all have a tendency to favour boxers we have watched in our youth, when we were most impressionable.

Mr. Callis, on the other hand, wasn't around to watch (with the possible exception of SRR) the fighters he rates so highly, as he's still with us today, and still a relatively young man in his 70s (I think?).

So having watched Ali as a young(er) man, and having followed the careers of Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Whitaker, etc... what is it, that makes him rate these modern greats below men like Nonpareil Dempsey and Mitchell, who boxed more than a century ago, and of whom there is no film to study? That is a mystery to me!

[Ray Corso]

When a beginner comes to me I test his natural abilities without him knowing what I'm doing. First is the balance, where does he natural place his feet and does he swing his punches "from the floor"! Thats an old expression that blends with digging your toes into the canvas as you pivot.
These are natural techniques that can tell me right away if the young man can throw power without much technical adjustments. The next thing is to test accuracy and if his eye hand coordination is pretty good then you have the basis to begin teaching power.
It can betaught to a student thats needs to be directed but your best power punches have that "natural" ability that is inherent.
Dempsey has a natural power punch, Louis for example was taught perfect technique that inhanced his power. Tyson had a natural stance that Cus simply built on. Foreman is the rare heavy handed puncher that has a hammer
that can tenderize the best conditioning than dispose of them.

I do believe in teaching power first, then boxing moves are incorperated.
Teach the techniques that are most difficult first, in professional boxing power is the ultimate desider. Often times two equally skilled men who are matched will have the slightly better puncher win.
Power has been over looked by the trainers today because so man6y of the best trainers are from the amateur ranks where speed and mobility rule.
Ofcorse you want both Methods mixed into one but then no one today is teaching the Sugar Ray Robinson Methods & Techniques anymore.
There was a time in the 50's where the pivot move reigned king and shoulders had to incorperated in the punches but then those men where getting "out boxed" because no one taught then how to move on their toes and persue. All though Archie Moore fared pretty well with that Method.
Robinson fared better!
breakfast time....
Ray.