AlI VS LISTON, FIX OR NOT? (PHANTOM PUNCH)

[AlexKid]

Marciano and Dempsey and all the commentators etc at the time thought it was a fix.

How good was Listens chin in general pretty tough?

Is it possible that Ali used different power mechanics for this punch and to someone that didn't know the mechanics or only knew more orthodox boxing mechanics could have written it off as weak when really it was powerful?

Or was it a fix? Sonny is a good actor if it was. I couldn't spot any sign of amateurish acting.

[HughJass]

A boxing writer spoke to Liston years after his bout with Ali,i believe it was in a casino.The writer said that Liston didn't want any part of Ali as he was "unpredictable" and a nutcase.Liston never knew what Ali was capable of,Liston didn't like that.

[LacedUp]

A boxing writer spoke to Liston years after his bout with Ali,i believe it was in a casino.The writer said that Liston didn't want any part of Ali as he was "unpredictable" and a nutcase.Liston never knew what Ali was capable of,Liston didn't like that.

Yeah and to someone else he said that Ali could punch.

To a third he said he never saw the shot coming and a fourth that he'd been threatened by NOF.

The first fight wasn't a fix. The second fight is strange, because most people don't remember that the fight actually went on and the two fighters fought on after Liston was knocked down.

[LacedUp]

Marciano and Dempsey and all the commentators etc at the time thought it was a fix.

How good was Listens chin in general pretty tough?

Is it possible that Ali used different power mechanics for this punch and to someone that didn't know the mechanics or only knew more orthodox boxing mechanics could have written it off as weak when really it was powerful?

Or was it a fix? Sonny is a good actor if it was. I couldn't spot any sign of amateurish acting.

Liston was a badass guy. The thought of him going down for a 10 count by that shot is a little too out there for me, I mean this is Sonny Liston we're talking about. He was a bad man.

However, people didn't really know how old he was and even though he said he was 32 I believe, there was speculation that he was more like 37 or 38. He didn't have a birth certificate.

There was something going on, and my best guess is that it had something to do with the NOI. Reports later surfaced that his wife had been kidnapped etc and though a book was written about it, you'd imagine that something like that would come into the limelight by the widow after it had all passed but it didn't.

Liston probably just didn't want to know what would happen if he beat Ali. Remember, this fight was in danger of not taking place and they had to fight somewhere obscure like Maine if I remember correctly. In front of no more than a few thousand people because people thought something could happen. And no one wanted to host an Ali fight with the NOI around.

Also, Ali had had a hernia operation between their two fights and Liston was said to be in monstrous shape before but lost it after it got postponed. A lot of stuff went down around that fight.

[joeandthebums]

Marciano and Dempsey and all the commentators etc at the time thought it was a fix.

In contrast those ringside believed it to be legit.

Floyd Patterson, ex-heavyweight champion said: "It was a perfect right hand."

José Torres, the light heavyweight champion: "A very strong right hand"

[BKM-2010]

I think the biggest mistake people make is focusing everything on that punch. The punch was completely legitimate and Liston's initial reaction was real. But when he went on his knees and fell back down on his back it was clear he wanted to take a dive. Walcott's screw up as the referee(walking away from the fighters) made Liston think the fight was stopped, but then Clay attacked him so Sonny probably thought the fight was still on. Then the fight was stopped permanently.

That's how I always looked at it. I think Liston got hit with a great punch that dropped him and then he didn't want any more of it. I think he was just scared to take another beating. He just didn't have heart.

[Ray Corso]

I believe the punch dropped him! Watch his right side from his ribs down to his waist ripple as the shot lands. He got caught falling in (ala Pac with Juan)
and got clipped. I think he recovered quickly and decided for what ever reason to call it a night!
I know for sure that Ali beat him up in the first fight and was getting ready to stop him in a round and Listons people called it on the stool.

Ali sparred with Liston a year or two prior, they thought Ali needed more time and wouldn't get a shot with Liston but Dundee and Ali thought they could win over Liston by frustrating him and not letting Sonny plant his feet!
It worked!

Ray.

[Humean]

I've posted this video before but it clearly shows the punch landed.

I think the biggest mistake people make is focusing everything on that punch. The punch was completely legitimate and Liston's initial reaction was real. But when he went on his knees and fell back down on his back it was clear he wanted to take a dive. Walcott's screw up as the referee(walking away from the fighters) made Liston think the fight was stopped, but then Clay attacked him so Sonny probably thought the fight was still on. Then the fight was stopped permanently.

That's how I always looked at it. I think Liston got hit with a great punch that dropped him and then he didn't want any more of it. I think he was just scared to take another beating. He just didn't have heart.

It is clear that he wanted to take a dive because he fell back when he went onto his knee? It is perfectly consistent with him having lost his equilibrium, when he did finally get up he was still unbalanced as he was falling backwards. That is surely more plausible than all the conspiracy theories. Hit with punch he didn't see, it landed right on side of jaw and rotated his head, he goes down hard and is disorientated and can't beat the count, simple, it just doesn't make as good a story.

[BKM-2010]

I've posted this video before but it clearly shows the punch landed.





It is clear that he wanted to take a dive because he fell back when he went onto his knee? It is perfectly consistent with him having lost his equilibrium, when he did finally get up he was still unbalanced as he was falling backwards. That is surely more plausible than all the conspiracy theories. Hit with punch he didn't see, it landed right on side of jaw and rotated his head, he goes down hard and is disorientated and can't beat the count, simple, it just doesn't make as good a story.

I'm talking about his first attempt to get back on his feet(where he fell on his back). I've seen thousands of knockdowns and that was the fakest looking reaction I've ever seen.

Like I said the punch and the knockdown were legit, but I don't believe he was that hurt by it and that he couldn't have gotten back up in time. He just quit.

[BKM-2010]

Btw the whole phantom punch thing wouldn't have been so big if we had been able to see the best angle of the punch. Sadly the impact is hidden on most angles in videos, we can't see the punch clip Liston's mandible.

Actually I once saw a better angle(from Liston's right side) but it was terrible quality on youtube.