fighters that would beat the Klitchkos

[Scott9945]

don't sing it, bring it!!!
God forbid you actually learn something about form and technical ability!
Being the champion from Eastern Europe and defending it there is like being the champion of Utah and defending it there! Who Cares!
Get your azz to Vegas and lets see what kind of numbers the Heavyweight Champion can produce! The facts are that an American kid and a Philipino peanut can out sell the HvyWt Champ! Not much to say about a HvyWt Champ who gets out sold by the little guys!!
How does this happen in boxing????
Its easy, they're more exciting and they're better skilled! Thats Why!!! Ray

The Klitschko's fights in Europe draw huge live crowds. They fight all the top contenders, not just Eastern Euros. Being world heavyweight champion is not the same as the champion of Utah. Lame analogy. Both of the brothers have won title fights in the US in major markets.

[Ray Corso]

Relax lil guy" don't get your panties all wrinkled up! Just havin' fun with the "Klitzco Fanatics"!!! I like the boys they try hard and come to the ring to win and thats all you can ask from any fighter!! But to put in them in the top all time contenders listings is a joke!! Anyone who thinks they can compete with the heavy greats is an idiot! Their too big, slow, uncoordinated, lack experience (oponents are weak) are not well rounded boxers!
Name one boxing expert (trainer, manager, matchmaker, promotor, sports writer, historian who rates them over the past heavyweight greats???? Ray

[likeamulekick]

Relax lil guy" don't get your panties all wrinkled up! Just havin' fun with the "Klitzco Fanatics"!!! I like the boys they try hard and come to the ring to win and thats all you can ask from any fighter!! But to put in them in the top all time contenders listings is a joke!! Anyone who thinks they can compete with the heavy greats is an idiot! Their too big, slow, uncoordinated, lack experience (oponents are weak) are not well rounded boxers!
Name one boxing expert (trainer, manager, matchmaker, promotor, sports writer, historian who rates them over the past heavyweight greats???? Ray

thats more to do with there legacy but taking on any klitchko is a challenge. Holmes only jus makes it on the top 10 list but theres no doubt hes 1 of the best. I can only think of 3 hws that i would be comfortable to face against the klitchkos and win

[Simurgh]

Simurgh: try to digest what I'm saying ok instead of the old BS that era's can't be compared! Heres what CAN BE compared. A jab...theres technique that are needed to throw an effective jab, theres mechanics there also then theres the times in the bout that its used! Now figure all the combos, movements, defense, methods, and add in attitude and the will to win and they fall short especially in the "form (techniques) and thought proccess!!
Thats what my estamations are based on and they're developed by someone who has actaually "trained fighters" and if you think that has no bearing try taking your car for repairs at your dentists! I do understand they were sons of a military man who was a policemen but I believe they didn't worry about shelter or food! Neither was on their own as teenagers!

As for ignorance tell me what scientific break throughs have come about that the Klitz. Bros have digested that allows them to be able to win over the talents of a Joe Louis. What boxing experts do you know who pick them over Joe Louis? Ray.

I am not saying, not at all, that you cannot compare different eras. All what I am saying is that sport (any sport) develops over time. Why else would people put so much effort in the healthy diets, the workout regimes, the optimization of the form and so on... We did learn a lot about human body alone. Why are athletes faster, stronger every Olympics (and they do go through rigorous drug testings). I know that am not telling anything new here, just highlighting my previous point.

Now how many opponents did Joe Louis fought that are of Wlad's size - not to say quality or talent? Don't get me wrong here - JL is in top3 HW ever no doubt - but if you want H2H comparison you really need to take these parameters into account too.


What's wrong with Wlad's jab? That jab wins him majority of his fights, isn't? (look at any of his fights).
Further on, what's wrong with Wlad's movement. He is a huge guy and can you name someone his size who is moving better or faster then him? (looked at Byrd or Haye fight).
What's wrong with Wlad's defense? Tell me the fight where that defense looked bad (after Manny developed it in Wlad). It looks very effective to me. People are saying Wlad has a 'glass chin' - so how the hell he won 60 fights with the bad defense and the glass chin?

I am not going to take anything away from you. You might be a fantastic coach (for all that I know) but unless you state more specially what's wrong with the above listed we cannot be on a same page. It's not enough that you just conclude (jab is bad, defense is bad, movement is bad, they would fall short, etc...). Where do you find the proof for that? Wlad has fought every possible style out there and he was more than excellent so far.
You might not like his style, or something else about him, but you can't deny he is extremely effective in what he does.

There is more in there then being son of a military man - you looked the place they lived. I fail to see the direct connection between providing the food with "sportsman spirit". I don't really believe in rather utopian picture of Cinderella Man. It might be well true but it isn't a necessary condition for being great, motivated, disciplined or tough. (neither is to box only in USA/Vegas or to be born in USA).

I cannot state any expert saying Wlad is better than Joe Louis (no one would do that, no matter what is the fighter we are talking about here), but I can state this :

"Wlad has the best footwork, co-ordination and balance of any fighter I have ever worked with. He’s the most accurate, single-punch knockout guy I have seen (my comment - not just trained).
A guy can be completely fine, not hurt, and Wladimir can put his lights out with one shot.
He is the most powerful natural talent I have worked with. In terms of jab, Wladimir is the best and after him I would put Lennox.
Lewis was a more versatile fighter but in terms of boxing arsenal, Wladimir is better." - Emanuel Steward.

Everybody is entitled to own opinion.

Cheers.

[Ray Corso]

lickamulekick, how old are you? You think theres only three heavies "Ever" that could beat Wlad? Really?? Ridiculous!!!
simurgh; first off where did I say his jab was BAD??? I said I made comparisons to the greater heavies and Wlad jabs is not the best or close to it! Now that goes for the rest of his arsonal too! Please don't say he has the best Jab (Ali, Shavers, Holmes, Foreman, Louis, Walcott I could go on & on! Then do the same with all the elements he his tools are NOT at the top at all!
As to Mannys coment, I knew Emanuel and competed against him many many times in the nationals and had respect for him as he did for me! He's not going to sugar coat or say anything negative about Wlad beause he is a pro at what he does and an employee of Wlads! Manny s comparsons are his personal work with Wlad he never worked with any of the fighters that proceeded Wlad. I never worked with Wlad but I've worked with other well established heavies like Shavers, Dokes, Tyson, Rabalta, Snipes, Cotziee sp)
and many other excellant fighters and I don't see anything Wlad does as excellant! So thats why I feel the way I do. I don't discredit him or think he doesn't strive to win. You've never heard me discredit what he's accomplished but to move hm into the catagory of an ATG is ridiculous!

Wheres the facts about the "scientific improvements" you talk about in boxing, not other sports!
How can the fighters in the 40s thru the 50s fight twice a week if their inferior?
The fighters then maintained their conditioning and were able to prep a few days out from a fight. The fighters today are out of shape within a week of their bouts!
Wlad is a good fighter, I never said he wasn't but he doesn't compete with the greats the proof is on video and film. He's in the top fifty and thats not a knock when you consider how many men have boxed! I don't believe his constitution is strong andI know his recoupertive powers are limited! Ray

[Scott9945]

Relax lil guy" don't get your panties all wrinkled up! Just havin' fun with the "Klitzco Fanatics"!!! I like the boys they try hard and come to the ring to win and thats all you can ask from any fighter!! But to put in them in the top all time contenders listings is a joke!! Anyone who thinks they can compete with the heavy greats is an idiot! Their too big, slow, uncoordinated, lack experience (oponents are weak) are not well rounded boxers!
Name one boxing expert (trainer, manager, matchmaker, promotor, sports writer, historian who rates them over the past heavyweight greats???? Ray

So Wladimir Klitschko, who had 140 amateur fights (including an Olympic Gold Medal), 62 professional fights (many for world titles), lacks experience?

You are so biased and closed minded that I can't take you seriously. Even if you did allegedly make a living in the sport.

[Ray Corso]

What are the names of the best competitors he fought? Who are the great fighters he's defeated? By all means enlighten me! Ray.

[M Bison]

Butterbean
McNeeley
Kimbo Slice
Galento
Carnera
Gastineau

Since we know that this is coming anyway...

That's all good and well you mention them but what about him?
What about the man to win a gold medal at the Olympics?
What about a force so strong he is still going at it till this day?

What about him?

AUDLEY 'A FORCE' HARRISON

[Scott9945]

What are the names of the best competitors he fought? Who are the great fighters he's defeated? By all means enlighten me! Ray.

They have beaten the best available challengers. They have cleaned out the division. Wladimir's mandatory contender declined to fight him. Most dominant champions ruled over weak eras. If I made the same comment about Rocky Marciano you would get all indignant. What about this can't you understand?

[Simurgh]

lickamulekick, how old are you? You think theres only three heavies "Ever" that could beat Wlad? Really?? Ridiculous!!!
simurgh; first off where did I say his jab was BAD??? I said I made comparisons to the greater heavies and Wlad jabs is not the best or close to it! Now that goes for the rest of his arsonal too! Please don't say he has the best Jab (Ali, Shavers, Holmes, Foreman, Louis, Walcott I could go on & on! Then do the same with all the elements he his tools are NOT at the top at all!
As to Mannys coment, I knew Emanuel and competed against him many many times in the nationals and had respect for him as he did for me! He's not going to sugar coat or say anything negative about Wlad beause he is a pro at what he does and an employee of Wlads! Manny s comparsons are his personal work with Wlad he never worked with any of the fighters that proceeded Wlad. I never worked with Wlad but I've worked with other well established heavies like Shavers, Dokes, Tyson, Rabalta, Snipes, Cotziee sp)
and many other excellant fighters and I don't see anything Wlad does as excellant! So thats why I feel the way I do. I don't discredit him or think he doesn't strive to win. You've never heard me discredit what he's accomplished but to move hm into the catagory of an ATG is ridiculous!

Wheres the facts about the "scientific improvements" you talk about in boxing, not other sports!
How can the fighters in the 40s thru the 50s fight twice a week if their inferior?
The fighters then maintained their conditioning and were able to prep a few days out from a fight. The fighters today are out of shape within a week of their bouts!
Wlad is a good fighter, I never said he wasn't but he doesn't compete with the greats the proof is on video and film. He's in the top fifty and thats not a knock when you consider how many men have boxed! I don't believe his constitution is strong andI know his recoupertive powers are limited! Ray

I respect your opinion, but I beg to disagree. For all what I know about Manny - he is not a businessman in sense he would oversell him fighter for something he is not - moreover at age of 67 when neither him or Wlad have to prove anymore. I just can't agree on discrimination of Manny's words just because he was his employee.

I don't know what parameter would you take to show the quantitative improvement in the sport of boxing - I can watch fights and fights - and can time, measure, analyses every segment of the game and I just can't see not 50, not 30, not 15, not even clear 10 fighters better than Wlad. I am talking about the overall quality here, effectiveness, not subjective preference on particular style.

You find ridiculous that someone would consider Wlad as ATG, and I find ridiculous that someone would find 49 fighters better than Wlad.

We don't need to put labels on each other for that, we just have a different view and opinion.