Let's say all heavyweight greats were in the same era?

[danthepoetman]

Nice post.

I'd just have trouble predicting a Louis KO over Ali in a return. Its difficult to predict a KO over a guy who was never knocked out and had one of the best chins/ability to absorb punishment ever. But your right though, Louis was lethal in rematches.....and if he had lost to Ali first time, you can bet he'd be better for the return.

Yeah I have difficulty seeing that too, the major issue for me being Ali's supremacy on the outside, and Louis' size when it comes to imposing his will on the inside.

But I just thought about the stipulation from the OP that everything in this scenario is going to be thrown into a modern context: nutrition, training facilities etc. So we could be talking about a bigger Louis, and that would give Ali and some of the others a whole lot more to think about.

Sugarj and res, thank you guys. You make good points too.

What is so compelling about Louis, is that combination of speed, power and perfect technique, and how incredibly short his punches, and even knock out punches, could be (sometimes only 12 to 18 inches; we can see the effect on everyone on the inside). I agree with you both that it’s difficult to predict a Louis victory over Ali, with not only his amazing capacity to take punishment, as you both mention, but also his indomitable mental strength.
Yet, Ali was down a few times, as you know. And Louis not only was harder (and “better”) punching than the guys who were able to put Ali down, but as you said, res, he would have been even bigger and stronger in Ali’s era. Besides, we all tend to forget that Louis, at 6’2”, was just about an inch smaller than Ali, and was fighting in his prime at pretty much the same weight as Joe Frazier in his, a bit over 200lbs.
You’re totally right in pointing out to Ali’s incredible toughness, but frankly, he never faced anyone like Louis. (Also remember that Louis fought very big guys; yet it meant nothing to him: Buddy Baer was about 6’ 7”; Carnera, 6’ 6”; and Abe Simon was also quite big and very strongly built. Louis could get as close to them as he wanted).
One more argument I could add to my pleading is the 66 Chuvalo fight (prime Ali). Chuvalo was able to get Ali in the ropes and hammer him. If the same situation had occurred with Louis, forget it: I think Louis would have inflicted lot more damages. Imagine!

That’s why I dare to suggest a Louis victory by ko (or stoppage) in a rematch, after suffering a defeat by decision to Ali in a first fight. What seems even more interesting to me though, is the idea of a rubber match!

Of course, it goes without saying it’s something we can never know, it’s pure speculation. Ali and Louis were both such giants, and also both such important social figures. But it’s so much fun to imagine these possibilities.

[danthepoetman]

By the way, guys, as I was evoking Louis' troubles in first fights with particular styles, came back to my mind a nice story you might have heard yourselves. As I was saying, Louis had lots of trouble in his first fight with Light Heavyweight champion Billy Conn. Conn was befuddling him with his speed and movement, getting inside with lightning fast combinations, then outside every bit as fast and moving away. The judges had Conn ahead by 3 points in the 13th round, when he became too brave, exchanged with Louis and was knocked out. All he had to do was to keep on doing the same and he would have won.

A good while after the fight, the two men met somewhere, and Conn said to Louis: “Come on, Joe! Why didn’t you let me win the title? Everyone knows how great you were. I would have held it for a couple of months, then I would have give it back to you”
And Louis answered: “Billy, you couldn’t hold it for 13 rounds!”

[Sugarj]

Yeah I have difficulty seeing that too, the major issue for me being Ali's supremacy on the outside, and Louis' size when it comes to imposing his will on the inside.

But I just thought about the stipulation from the OP that everything in this scenario is going to be thrown into a modern context: nutrition, training facilities etc. So we could be talking about a bigger Louis, and that would give Ali and some of the others a whole lot more to think about.

Thats true, the modern conditioner/dietician would probably bulk Louis up more..........same with Ali. But I can't seeing either of them being better for it. Perhaps heavier handed, but slower and less active.

They were both damned quick heavyweights who could fight fast paced 15 round fights. Is modern conditioning much better in boxing terms? I don't know. Olympic standards have certainly improved, but world class boxers' workrate doesn't look any more impressive on film today than 60-70 years ago.

[Sugarj]

Sugarj and res, thank you guys. You make good points too.

What is so compelling about Louis, is that combination of speed, power and perfect technique, and how incredibly short his punches, and even knock out punches, could be (sometimes only 12 to 18 inches; we can see the effect on everyone on the inside). I agree with you both that it’s difficult to predict a Louis victory over Ali, with not only his amazing capacity to take punishment, as you both mention, but also his indomitable mental strength.
Yet, Ali was down a few times, as you know. And Louis not only was harder (and “better”) punching than the guys who were able to put Ali down, but as you said, res, he would have been even bigger and stronger in Ali’s era. Besides, we all tend to forget that Louis, at 6’2”, was just about an inch smaller than Ali, and was fighting in his prime at pretty much the same weight as Joe Frazier in his, a bit over 200lbs.
You’re totally right in pointing out to Ali’s incredible toughness, but frankly, he never faced anyone like Louis. (Also remember that Louis fought very big guys; yet it meant nothing to him: Buddy Baer was about 6’ 7”; Carnera, 6’ 6”; and Abe Simon was also quite big and very strongly built. Louis could get as close to them as he wanted).
One more argument I could add to my pleading is the 66 Chuvalo fight (prime Ali). Chuvalo was able to get Ali in the ropes and hammer him. If the same situation had occurred with Louis, forget it: I think Louis would have inflicted lot more damages. Imagine!

That’s why I dare to suggest a Louis victory by ko (or stoppage) in a rematch, after suffering a defeat by decision to Ali in a first fight. What seems even more interesting to me though, is the idea of a rubber match!

Of course, it goes without saying it’s something we can never know, it’s pure speculation. Ali and Louis were both such giants, and also both such important social figures. But it’s so much fun to imagine these possibilities.

God bless Joe Louis, the man was simply awesome. I just can't see Ali taking him as lightly as George Chuvalo. Ali looked great at times against Chuvalo, but he showboated alot and left his waist exposed for Chuvalo to hit. That would be crazy against Louis (who'd let all manner of spiteful combinations loose as soon as he had Ali in range).

I think Ali would fight him very nervously.

As for a rematch: Hell anythings possible, a Louis decision wouldn't be out of the question. A stoppage over prime Ali? Ooooooh, tough call.

[danthepoetman]

God bless Joe Louis, the man was simply awesome. I just can't see Ali taking him as lightly as George Chuvalo. Ali looked great at times against Chuvalo, but he showboated alot and left his waist exposed for Chuvalo to hit. That would be crazy against Louis (who'd let all manner of spiteful combinations loose as soon as he had Ali in range).

I think Ali would fight him very nervously.

As for a rematch: Hell anythings possible, a Louis decision wouldn't be out of the question. A stoppage over prime Ali? Ooooooh, tough call.

True Sugarj, Ali wouldn’t take Joe as lightly as he did Chuvalo in 66. Moreover, he already was troubled by legal problems and that’s the reason the fight took place in Toronto as one of the last alternatives. I’m just mentioning the fight as a hypothesis to think things through.

[SBleeder]

Yeah I have difficulty seeing that too, the major issue for me being Ali's supremacy on the outside, and Louis' size when it comes to imposing his will on the inside.

But I just thought about the stipulation from the OP that everything in this scenario is going to be thrown into a modern context: nutrition, training facilities etc. So we could be talking about a bigger Louis, and that would give Ali and some of the others a whole lot more to think about.

Sorry, but the whole "modern training and nutrition" thing grinds my gears severely.

Louis hit a heavy bag, speed bag, and punch mitts. He sparred voraciously, and did roadwork.

Modern nutrition? The Golden Arches didn't pollute our scenery in the 30s and 40s. Sure, current heavyweights are heavier... whether or not that would prove a benefit against a smaller, quicker, slicker heavyweight is up for debate.

And as for weight training, don't even get me started on how completely unnecessary it is toward building a great fighter.

Personally, I'd rather train a fighter in a dusty 1930s gym with a Ray Arcel or Freddie Brown overseeing the proceedings than in a modern facility under the eye of a "strength and conditioning specialist". Yes, there are brilliant trainers today, but they are few and far between. Today's focus seems to be on creating a better athlete as opposed to a better BOXER.

So if it's all the same, I'll take Joe Louis as he was, 195 pounds of masterful destruction. Dollars to donuts he crucifies anyone, past, present, or future, not named Ali.

[StarshipTrooper]

Sorry, but the whole "modern training and nutrition" thing grinds my gears severely.

Louis hit a heavy bag, speed bag, and punch mitts. He sparred voraciously, and did roadwork.

Modern nutrition? The Golden Arches didn't pollute our scenery in the 30s and 40s. Sure, current heavyweights are heavier... whether or not that would prove a benefit against a smaller, quicker, slicker heavyweight is up for debate.

And as for weight training, don't even get me started on how completely unnecessary it is toward building a great fighter.

Personally, I'd rather train a fighter in a dusty 1930s gym with a Ray Arcel or Freddie Brown overseeing the proceedings than in a modern facility under the eye of a "strength and conditioning specialist". Yes, there are brilliant trainers today, but they are few and far between. Today's focus seems to be on creating a better athlete as opposed to a better BOXER.

Do any reading in NSB or The Lounge and you'll see a fanatical obsession with "athleticism" and the belief that it's the end all and be all of everything.

Poet

[Mintcar923]

I think Lennox Lewis' size and strength would always pose a problem for smaller heavies such as Dempsey, Marciano, and Tyson. They'd keep coming at him, though. Ali would have a great chance of out-slicking everyone. But, then again it would be interesting to see if he could take Tyson's right to the body/right uppercut combo or Marciano's Suzy Q flush. Actually, Larry Holmes would have a great shot due to his talent factor, as well. Also, how would Joe Louis handle a Foreman or Liston? We've never seen him in with any big intimidator. Is there a chance he'd fold?? And, some believe his chin to be a little suspect...

[StarshipTrooper]

We've never seen him in with any big intimidator. Is there a chance he'd fold??

^^^^^ Apparently has never heard of the Baers :rolleyes9:

[Mintcar923]

^^^^^ Apparently has never heard of the Baers :rolleyes9:

I have but I'm sure most will agree they are not quite on the same level as Foreman or Liston...