My top 25 ATG list

[RubenSonny]

Heavyweights and active fighters are not included.

Be as picky in your criticisms as you want, I won't get offended, I enjoy debate. However, do not spew general crap at me e.g. saying I overrate old fighters without specifying why and producing a coherent argument.

- Ray Robinson
- Harry Greb
- Sam Langford
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Benny Leonard
7. Willie Pep
8. Roberto Duran
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Archie Moore
11. Mickey Walker
12. Holman Williams
13. Ray Leonard
14. Joe Gans
15. Eder Jofre
16. Pernell Whitaker
17. Gene Tunney
18. Charley Burley
19. Alexis Arguello
20. Kid Gavilan
21. Barney Ross
22. Jake Lamotta
23. Barbados Joe Walcott
24. Jose Napoles
25. Jimmy Mclarnin

Butcher away boys!

[Perfect Plex]

Heavyweights and active fighters are not included.

Be as picky in your criticisms as you want, I won't get offended, I enjoy debate. However, do not spew general crap at me e.g. saying I overrate old fighters without specifying why and producing a coherent argument.

- Ray Robinson
- Harry Greb
- Sam Langford
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Benny Leonard
7. Willie Pep
8. Roberto Duran
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Archie Moore
11. Mickey Walker
12. Holman Williams
13. Ray Leonard
14. Joe Gans
15. Eder Jofre
16. Pernell Whitaker
17. Gene Tunney
18. Charley Burley
19. Alexis Arguello
20. Kid Gavilan
21. Barney Ross
22. Jake Lamotta
23. Barbados Joe Walcott
24. Jose Napoles
25. Jimmy Mclarnin

Butcher away boys!

Thats a pretty good list BUT.......

-Holman Williams the 12 greatest fighter ever of all time? No way man. How can he rank above the likes of Monzon, Whitaker, Canzoneri, Gans, Arguello, Walcott, Ross etc. Dosen't make no sense at all.

-I really don't belive Ezzard Charles is greater than Duran, but thats just me.

-Don't you think Jake Lamotta is a tad to high? Especailly considering there's no Monzon, Hagler, Chavez, Caznoneri even on the list. I've never saw anyone rank him so high, and am a big fan.

-The stand out names missing to me is Monzon, Canzoneri, Chavez, Hagler, Griffith, Saddler, Jimmy Wilde.

I also have to admit I feel Gavilan, Jofre, & Napoles are to high.

[IronDanHamza]

Very good list overall.

I also agree that Holman Williams, although underrated is much too high.

I also agree with the fact Carlos Monzon should be higher than Jake Lamotta.

Strong list overall, few fighters who missing that I would have but overall, great job.

[NChristo]

Nice list, lack of a few boxers has me confused as does some of the ordering but ah well, not going to please everyone.

One of the better lists I've seen for sure.

[SCtrojansbaby]

No Chavez Monzon Sanchez?

[RubenSonny]

Thats a pretty good list BUT.......

Thanks

-Holman Williams the 12 greatest fighter ever of all time? No way man. How can he rank above the likes of Monzon, Whitaker, Canzoneri, Gans, Arguello, Walcott, Ross etc. Dosen't make no sense at all.

I expected that to be the most striking placement for people

Williams has wins over Cocoa Kid x3, Jack Portney, Jackie Burke, Charley Burley x3, Eddie Dolan x2, Izzy Jannazzo, Joe Legon, Antonio Fernandez x2. Jose Basora x2, Kid Tunero x3, Joe Carter x3, Eddie Booker, Steve Belloise, Jack Chase 4x, Lloyd Marshall, Tiger Wade, Bert Lytell, Archie Moore, Bob Satterfield.

I think its an insane record, I can't think of many fighters with resumes better than that and I certainly wouldn't class any of the names you mentioned in there as being clearly greater fighters. Even though I don't solely rank on resume, it is what comes first for me and I think only a select few fighters have a greater resume than Williams, thats just me though.

He has his fair share of losses but he also fought much more than anyone mentioned and most likely found himself on the wrong end of a few close decisions. He doesn't have any strikingly embarrassing losses, he was only stopped 3 times in 188 bouts(probably more) and all by great fighters with him being shot to **** by the Basora fight.

-I really don't belive Ezzard Charles is greater than Duran, but thats just me.

Thats fair enough theres not much between them anyway you spin it though, just my preference. I might expand on this later though.

-Don't you think Jake Lamotta is a tad to high? Especailly considering there's no Monzon, Hagler, Chavez, Caznoneri even on the list. I've never saw anyone rank him so high, and am a big fan.

Wins over Zivic, Dauthille, Yarosz, Williams, Satterfield, Cerdan, a much lighter but still a marvel in Robinson, Basora, Lytell, Edgar, Bell, Janiro. Also very impressed by his subtle skills, I generally feel he is underrated but I won't argue too hard with this a disagreement with his ranking, one thing Lamotta definitely deserves credit for is the fact he has multiple wins over that are near-prime. I really don't see how Chavez is greater than him, would you like to elaborate on that?

-The stand out names missing to me is Monzon, Canzoneri, Chavez, Hagler, Griffith, Saddler, Jimmy Wilde.

Griffith is someone who I think I should maybe have squeezed in at the bottom. I don't really see how Jimmy Wilde is greater than any of those fighters, but I honestly don't know all that much about him, if anyone could educate me on his career I'd be much obliged.

I also have to admit I feel Gavilan, Jofre, & Napoles are to high.

Just something to keep in mind - my rankings aren't purely based on resume and all those fighters had extraordinary skills, Hearns and Robinson are the only welterweights I would favor against Napoles and Griffith in hypothetical match-ups, I'm undecided with Ray Leonard. I wouldn't favour any bantie in history over Jofre. Having said that all have excellent resumes, why do you think they are too high? Where would you place them etc?

Very good list overall.

I also agree that Holman Williams, although underrated is much too high.

I honestly think he's that underrated. Respond to my response to NY Boxing!

I also agree with the fact Carlos Monzon should be higher than Jake Lamotta.

Strong list overall, few fighters who missing that I would have but overall, great job.

Well you would wouldn't you nah I'm playing I rank Jake very high I don't think you can call Monzon clearly higher on an all-time scale. Btw the Lamottas, Haglers etc would be coming next.

And thanks bro.

Nice list, lack of a few boxers has me confused as does some of the ordering but ah well, not going to please everyone.

One of the better lists I've seen for sure.

Thanks man. Anything specific to nitpick? I enjoy the debate

No Chavez Monzon Sanchez?

Monzon would probably be in the next quarter while the other 2 might be in the one after that.

[Scott9945]

Heavyweights and active fighters are not included.

Be as picky in your criticisms as you want, I won't get offended, I enjoy debate. However, do not spew general crap at me e.g. saying I overrate old fighters without specifying why and producing a coherent argument.

- Ray Robinson
- Harry Greb
- Sam Langford
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Benny Leonard
7. Willie Pep
8. Roberto Duran
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Archie Moore
11. Mickey Walker
12. Holman Williams
13. Ray Leonard
14. Joe Gans
15. Eder Jofre
16. Pernell Whitaker
17. Gene Tunney
18. Charley Burley
19. Alexis Arguello
20. Kid Gavilan
21. Barney Ross
22. Jake Lamotta
23. Barbados Joe Walcott
24. Jose Napoles
25. Jimmy Mclarnin

Butcher away boys!

One of the better lists that I've seen. Especially 1-16. However I do think that Sandy Saddler and Jimmy Wilde need to be on there somewhere.

[IronDanHamza]

I honestly think he's that underrated. Respond to my response to NY Boxing!

We will have to agree to disagree. I believe Holman Williams is a great great fighter but inside the Top 15 is much to high IMO.

Well you would wouldn't you nah I'm playing I rank Jake very high I don't think you can call Monzon clearly higher on an all-time scale. Btw the Lamottas, Haglers etc would be coming next.

And thanks bro.

I would.

I personally struggle to rank Lamotta in the Top 5 MW's and Monzon is gernally regarded as a Top 3 Middleweight by the majority of experts for a reason IMO.

Both only campaigned at MW and Monzon is clearly the greater of the two, IMO.

Just to touch on Ezzard Charles and Duran, I think Charles is quite clearly the greater of the two. Charles has one of the best resumes I have ever seen.

[NChristo]

Thanks man. Anything specific to nitpick? I enjoy the debate

McLarnin and Ross should be higher imo, Saddler should be on there.

I honestly don't think that much of Wilde because of his lack of top quality opponents despite his great unbeaten run and dominance, it's a breath of fresh air for me personally although I could see how others wouldn't like it that he's not on there.

I'm guessing Moore's, Charles', Tunney's etc achievements at Heavy are included even though the natural heavies aren't ?.
(That's how I'd do it anyway, not sure if it's same for you)

William's is a bit too high for me but I can kind of understand putting him there.

[RubenSonny]

One of the better lists that I've seen. Especially 1-16. However I do think that Sandy Saddler and Jimmy Wilde need to be on there somewhere.

Thanks. Saddler would be within the top 30 probably just haven't got that far yet. I will admit I don't know all that much about Wilde but from what I know he didn't face much top opposition, I feel he's overrated, maybe you can educate me on him?

We will have to agree to disagree. I believe Holman Williams is a great great fighter but inside the Top 15 is much to high IMO.





I would.

I personally struggle to rank Lamotta in the Top 5 MW's and Monzon is gernally regarded as a Top 3 Middleweight by the majority of experts for a reason IMO.

Both only campaigned at MW and Monzon is clearly the greater of the two, IMO.

Just to touch on Ezzard Charles and Duran, I think Charles is quite clearly the greater of the two. Charles has one of the best resumes I have ever seen.

Williams has a top 20 resume without a doubt IMO.

Lamotta has the Yarosz and Satterfield wins above middle, Lamottas best wins are better than Monzons.

McLarnin and Ross should be higher imo, Saddler should be on there.

I honestly don't think that much of Wilde because of his lack of top quality opponents despite his great unbeaten run and dominance, it's a breath of fresh air for me personally although I could see how others wouldn't like it that he's not on there.

I'm guessing Moore's, Charles', Tunney's etc achievements at Heavy are included even though the natural heavies aren't ?.
(That's how I'd do it anyway, not sure if it's same for you)

William's is a bit too high for me but I can kind of understand putting him there.

Yeah they are, I couldn't rank them where they are if I didn't. I will respond to the rest of your post tomorrow.