My top 25 ATG list

[StarshipTrooper]

Monzon would probably be in the next quarter while the other 2 might be in the one after that.

Chavez doesn't belong anywhere near a top-25 p4p ATG list.....Ray Leonard, Whitaker, and Hagler get on before he does.

Poet

[Steak]

actually a pretty solid overall list, since you can make a fair case for each guy being as high as he is. Dont think I would necessarily have it the same order wise, but that will always happen and its certainly up for debate.


however, Im not quite sure I would put LaMotta in a top 25 list, since virtually all of his accomplishments were at MW and I wouldnt put him above Hagler or Monzon at MW...and personally I could never put Jofre above the likes of Whitaker. I think Arguello should also be above Jofre.

I honestly don't think that much of Wilde because of his lack of top quality opponents despite his great unbeaten run and dominance, it's a breath of fresh air for me personally although I could see how others wouldn't like it that he's not on there.

Its refreshing to see that someone agrees with me regarding Wilde.

[Barn]

Heavyweights and active fighters are not included.

Be as picky in your criticisms as you want, I won't get offended, I enjoy debate. However, do not spew general crap at me e.g. saying I overrate old fighters without specifying why and producing a coherent argument.

- Ray Robinson
- Harry Greb
- Sam Langford
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Benny Leonard
7. Willie Pep
8. Roberto Duran
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Archie Moore
11. Mickey Walker
12. Holman Williams
13. Ray Leonard
14. Joe Gans
15. Eder Jofre
16. Pernell Whitaker
17. Gene Tunney
18. Charley Burley
19. Alexis Arguello
20. Kid Gavilan
21. Barney Ross
22. Jake Lamotta
23. Barbados Joe Walcott
24. Jose Napoles
25. Jimmy Mclarnin

Butcher away boys!

Only ones I really disagree with is Williams and LaMotta.

Our Top 10 fighters contain 9 of the same fighters. (I also have Charles 5)

As much as I hate Heavywegith bias, I feel Ali and Joe Louis should be on there. Ali around 10 and Louis around 20 is what I usually come up with.

Massive fan of Gavilans inclusion, many tend to leave him out.

Mickey Walker at 11 :wank:

Very, very good list

[Greatest1942]

Thanks. Saddler would be within the top 30 probably just haven't got that far yet. I will admit I don't know all that much about Wilde but from what I know he didn't face much top opposition, I feel he's overrated, maybe you can educate me on him?



Williams has a top 20 resume without a doubt IMO.

Lamotta has the Yarosz and Satterfield wins above middle, Lamottas best wins are better than Monzons.



Yeah they are, I couldn't rank them where they are if I didn't. I will respond to the rest of your post tomorrow.

Good List...one of the better ones. I dont have complaints about Williams. The list of opponents he beat is top drawer. Plus the accolades he got from Futch is not common place too.

Still I believe you should have Saddler there. As you should have Monzoon and Sanchez. Agreed Lamottas best win may be better than Monzoon, but Monzoon dominance in his division and his stint with the middle weight title can not be matched by Jake. Carlos is a top 3 middle weight. Jake Lamotta is not. Monzoon had better punching power , better jab, better strength and a solid chin. Lamootta had a better chin, but thats it.

But I have one serious gripe and that is not having Tony Canzoneri in this list.Canzoneri, Barney Ross and Henry Armstrong were the only boxing champions in history to be allowed to hold two or more world titles simultaneously.Canzoneri had a record of 141 wins, 24 losses, 10 draws and 3 no decisions. His resume speaks for itself. Tony won 5 world titles in 3 different divisions! Featherweight, Lightweight (twice), & Junior Welterweight (twice). And there are many in your list whose resume fades against his.

But but...I dont know any list that is perfect. And yours was a wonderful effort. This is just a mild criticism..no butchering

[StarshipTrooper]

Heavyweights and active fighters are not included.

Be as picky in your criticisms as you want, I won't get offended, I enjoy debate. However, do not spew general crap at me e.g. saying I overrate old fighters without specifying why and producing a coherent argument.

- Ray Robinson
- Harry Greb
- Sam Langford
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Benny Leonard
7. Willie Pep
8. Roberto Duran
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Archie Moore
11. Mickey Walker
12. Holman Williams
13. Ray Leonard
14. Joe Gans
15. Eder Jofre
16. Pernell Whitaker
17. Gene Tunney
18. Charley Burley
19. Alexis Arguello
20. Kid Gavilan
21. Barney Ross
22. Jake Lamotta
23. Barbados Joe Walcott
24. Jose Napoles
25. Jimmy Mclarnin

Butcher away boys!

Did you get a load of Trojanman's list? Chavez top-5 and Whitaker, Arguello, Benitez, and Hearns don't even make his list :hahahaha9:

Poet

[RubenSonny]

McLarnin and Ross should be higher imo, Saddler should be on there.

I honestly don't think that much of Wilde because of his lack of top quality opponents despite his great unbeaten run and dominance, it's a breath of fresh air for me personally although I could see how others wouldn't like it that he's not on there.

I'm guessing Moore's, Charles', Tunney's etc achievements at Heavy are included even though the natural heavies aren't ?.
(That's how I'd do it anyway, not sure if it's same for you)

William's is a bit too high for me but I can kind of understand putting him there.

I agree with the Saddler comment, I will make room for him.

Chavez doesn't belong anywhere near a top-25 p4p ATG list.....Ray Leonard, Whitaker, and Hagler get on before he does.

Poet

Believe me I wouldn't dream of it, I estimate he will be in a wide bracket somewhere between 40-75 can't say for sure really.

actually a pretty solid overall list, since you can make a fair case for each guy being as high as he is. Dont think I would necessarily have it the same order wise, but that will always happen and its certainly up for debate.


however, Im not quite sure I would put LaMotta in a top 25 list, since virtually all of his accomplishments were at MW and I wouldnt put him above Hagler or Monzon at MW...and personally I could never put Jofre above the likes of Whitaker. I think Arguello should also be above Jofre.
Its refreshing to see that someone agrees with me regarding Wilde.

Thanks, Jofre is a case of a leap of faith, very very impressed with his skills.

Good List...one of the better ones. I dont have complaints about Williams. The list of opponents he beat is top drawer. Plus the accolades he got from Futch is not common place too.

Still I believe you should have Saddler there. As you should have Monzoon and Sanchez. Agreed Lamottas best win may be better than Monzoon, but Monzoon dominance in his division and his stint with the middle weight title can not be matched by Jake. Carlos is a top 3 middle weight. Jake Lamotta is not. Monzoon had better punching power , better jab, better strength and a solid chin. Lamootta had a better chin, but thats it.

But I have one serious gripe and that is not having Tony Canzoneri in this list.Canzoneri, Barney Ross and Henry Armstrong were the only boxing champions in history to be allowed to hold two or more world titles simultaneously.Canzoneri had a record of 141 wins, 24 losses, 10 draws and 3 no decisions. His resume speaks for itself. Tony won 5 world titles in 3 different divisions! Featherweight, Lightweight (twice), & Junior Welterweight (twice). And there are many in your list whose resume fades against his.

But but...I dont know any list that is perfect. And yours was a wonderful effort. This is just a mild criticism..no butchering

Thanks a lot man, the suggestions have been taken in. I do think I rushed the list a bit and I have given it some thought, I think Saddler deserves a place in the top 25, I'm undecided on Monzons placement. I think I need to have a futher look into Canzoneris record I always thought Mclarnin and Ross should be ranked above him though, I think he should probably squeeze into the top 25. Another great fighter I shamefully omitted that you mentioned in another thread is Rosenbloom, I really I need to fit him in somewhere. I will take all these suggestions in and revise my list thoroughly and I should be back with a more complete top 50 sometime in manana.

Did you get a load of Trojanman's list? Chavez top-5 and Whitaker, Arguello, Benitez, and Hearns don't even make his list :hahahaha9:

Poet

Hey Poet! Weren't you taught not make fun of the slow kids at school

[RubenSonny]

Only ones I really disagree with is Williams and LaMotta.

Our Top 10 fighters contain 9 of the same fighters. (I also have Charles 5)

As much as I hate Heavywegith bias, I feel Ali and Joe Louis should be on there. Ali around 10 and Louis around 20 is what I usually come up with.

Massive fan of Gavilans inclusion, many tend to leave him out.

Mickey Walker at 11 :wank:

Very, very good list

Thanks I do remember complimenting your top 10 awhile ago and saying how similar it was to mine.

[BigStereotype]

I don't get the whole no heavyweights thing. Why not? Other than that, looks good. Not so sure about Holman Williams being so high but hey, to each their own.

[Pastrano]

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Harry Greb
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Eder Jofre
5. Roberto Duran
6. Willie Pep
7. Joe Gans
8. Julio Cesar Chavez
9. Benny Leonard
10. Jimmy Wylde
11. Carlos Ortiz
12. Sugar Ray Leonard
13. Thomas Hearns
14. Tony Canzoneri
15. Barney Ross
16. Joe Louis
17. Emile Griffith
18. Alexis Arguello
19. Jose Napoles
20. Kid Gavilan
21. Luis Manuel Rodriguez
22. Archie Moore
23. Fritzie Zivic
24. Wilfred Benitez
25. Carlos Monzon

[Vadrigar.]

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Harry Greb
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Eder Jofre
5. Roberto Duran
6. Willie Pep
7. Joe Gans
8. Julio Cesar Chavez
9. Benny Leonard
10. Jimmy Wylde
11. Carlos Ortiz
12. Sugar Ray Leonard
13. Thomas Hearns
14. Tony Canzoneri
15. Barney Ross
16. Joe Louis
17. Emile Griffith
18. Sam Langford
19. Jose Napoles
20. Kid Gavilan
21. Luis Manuel Rodriguez
22. Archie Moore
23. Fritzie Zivic
24. Wilfred Benitez
25. Carlos Monzon

WTH? you have Chavez on that list but no Whitaker.