Who would win between Julio Cesar Chavez vs Roberto Duran

[SCtrojansbaby]

the only way you could say that Chavez has a better record than Leonard is if you put more emphasis on quantity over quantity, because Chavez did beat more top competition than Leonard.

however, Leonard's wins are HUGE, even if you dont give him credit for the Hagler one(which I thought he lost). I couldnt put Chavez above Leonard. the Kalule win is very underrated for Leonard as well.

its not even an insult, youd be very hard pressed to find a fighter with as many really good wins as Leonard.

Hard presses? Leonard has 4 great win Chavez has 6.

Is a razor thin win vs a past his prime hagler better then --- a shutout win vs Camacho. EQUAL

Is a very close KO win vs Hearns better then --- a close KO wins vs Taylor + close TD vs Randall. EQUAL

Is a TKO vs a past his prime Duran better then a --- close KO win vs a prime Rosario + KO win vs Martinez. EQUAL

Is a Ko wins Benitez better then a KO win vs Ramirez. EQUAL

and as has been discussed and agreed upon Chavez 2nd tier wins are much better then Leonard's

[StarshipTrooper]

Hard presses? Leonard has 4 great win Chavez has 6.

Is a razor thin win vs a past his prime hagler better then --- a shutout win vs Camacho. EQUAL

Is a very close KO win vs Hearns better then --- a close KO wins vs Taylor + close TD vs Randall. EQUAL

Is a TKO vs a past his prime Duran better then a --- close KO win vs a prime Rosario + KO win vs Martinez. EQUAL

Is a Ko wins Benitez better then a KO win vs Ramirez. EQUAL

and as has been discussed and agreed upon Chavez 2nd tier wins are much better then Leonard's

Except that there's nothing "equal" about them. Camacho is NOT in the same class as Hagler. Taylor and Randall combined are NOT in the same class as Hearns. Rosario and Martinez combined are not in the same class as Duran. Ramirez is in no way shape or form in the same class as Benitez. Next.

Poet

[Barn]

Ray Leonard is around 20 on my P4P list and I have Chavez around 30.

[IronDanHamza]

Hard presses? Leonard has 4 great win Chavez has 6.

Is a razor thin win vs a past his prime hagler better then --- a shutout win vs Camacho. EQUAL

Is a very close KO win vs Hearns better then --- a close KO wins vs Taylor + close TD vs Randall. EQUAL

Is a TKO vs a past his prime Duran better then a --- close KO win vs a prime Rosario + KO win vs Martinez. EQUAL

Is a Ko wins Benitez better then a KO win vs Ramirez. EQUAL

and as has been discussed and agreed upon Chavez 2nd tier wins are much better then Leonard's

Those fights genuinely couldn't be further from 'equal'.

I mean, Benitez win equal to the Ramirez win? Abserd.

[istmeno]

Those fights genuinely couldn't be further from 'equal'.

I mean, Benitez win equal to the Ramirez win? Abserd.

i can't get past the fact that he actually is using the randall fight as any type of measuring stick considering he was given a way out of that fight.

[joseph5620]

i can't get past the fact that he actually is using the randall fight as any type of measuring stick considering he was given a way out of that fight.

Chavez sure did find a way out of that fight. He quit. But nothing USCTrojan used as examples has any logic. So it doesn't surprise me that he would use that fight as an example.

[BennyST]

Hard presses? Leonard has 4 great win Chavez has 6.

Is a razor thin win vs a past his prime hagler better then --- a shutout win vs Camacho. EQUAL

Is a very close KO win vs Hearns better then --- a close KO wins vs Taylor + close TD vs Randall. EQUAL

Is a TKO vs a past his prime Duran better then a --- close KO win vs a prime Rosario + KO win vs Martinez. EQUAL

Is a Ko wins Benitez better then a KO win vs Ramirez. EQUAL

and as has been discussed and agreed upon Chavez 2nd tier wins are much better then Leonard's

This is an excellent post. I agree. I think people really overrate Leonard's wins and as stated above by SCT, Chavez' wins over Camacho, Rosario, Ramirez and Taylor are equally as good as wins over Hearns, Duran, Hagler and Benitez.

If you look at it with simple statistics you can see that they are close, but then Chavez has more top wins than Leonard so that makes it even better. It's very rare to find someone with wins over four fighters that are arguably in the top 10-40 P4P lists like Leonard does, but Rosario, Camacho, Taylor and Ramirez are right up there equally as good.

I think at least Rosario has a chance to make the top 100. He's a HOFer at least! One or two of the others are as well possibly. That's pretty even.

Also, on more statistics, it can be looked at like this which shows the equality of the wins.
Hearns: the undefeated WBA champion 35-0. Just beaten HOF champ Cuevas in two rounds along with a few title defenses.
Benitez: the undefeated two division 38-0 WBC champion. Had just beaten HOF champ Palomino as well as beating HOF great Kid Pembele at 140.
Duran: 70-1. Unified lightweight champion who had moved up to 147. Just beaten HOF champ Palomino. Had lost one fight eight years previous and revenged it twice. No losses apart from that.
Hagler: Last loss was 11 years previous, which had also been revenged as had his one other loss...only one of them. Only two losses, early on career 11 years previous. Undisputed 160 pound champion, who had just off wins over HOF greats Hearns and Duran, plus undefeated Mugabi. Last fight before retirement.

So, I guess you could say that every one of those fighters was more or less undefeated, multiple time/weight champions, in about ten years. So, his oppositions only closest loss before he fought them was eight years previous, which had been avenged.... twice..... by KO as had Hagler's only losses, also twice, also by KO.

Taylor: was undefeated 24-0 IBF champion. Best win over Buddy McGirt.
Rosario: only two losses. One by close decision the year before and one by KO two years before. Was lightweight champion. Just come off wins over Juan Nazario and Livingstone Bramble.
Ramirez: only had six losses in about 100 fights, though had lost his previous fight...well, he had 'won' it against Whitaker technically. Anyway, he had lost/won his previous fight to Whitaker, would lose to Chavez, then Whitaker again, then to Coggi and retire.
Camacho: only had one loss, to Greg Haugen, whom he avenged it against the previous year to fighting Chavez. Last fight was for the WBO title against Haugen.

So, between each four, the first set had three losses all up, all of which were avenged multiple times by KO and the closest one being eight years beforehand. All were multiple division, multiple time, unified or undisputed champions and are all considered to be ATGs and among the greatest ever in their best division.

The second set only had about ten losses between them and a couple of them were avenged and the closest loss was I guess the fight before Chavez or at least the previous year or so in all cases apart from Taylor whose only black mark to that point was a draw to Howard Davis Jr.

That's pretty even in my opinion!

[StarshipTrooper]

This is an excellent post. I agree. I think people really overrate Leonard's wins and as stated above by SCT, Chavez' wins over Camacho, Rosario, Ramirez and Taylor are equally as good as wins over Hearns, Duran, Hagler and Benitez.

If you look at it with simple statistics you can see that they are close, but then Chavez has more top wins than Leonard so that makes it even better. It's very rare to find someone with wins over four fighters that are arguably in the top 10-40 P4P lists like Leonard does, but Rosario, Camacho, Taylor and Ramirez are right up there equally as good.

I think at least Rosario has a chance to make the top 100. He's a HOFer at least! One or two of the others are as well possibly. That's pretty even.

Also, on more statistics, it can be looked at like this which shows the equality of the wins.
Hearns: the undefeated WBA champion 35-0. Just beaten HOF champ Cuevas in two rounds along with a few title defenses.
Benitez: the undefeated two division 38-0 WBC champion. Had just beaten HOF champ Palomino as well as beating HOF great Kid Pembele at 140.
Duran: 70-1. Unified lightweight champion who had moved up to 147. Just beaten HOF champ Palomino. Had lost one fight eight years previous and revenged it twice. No losses apart from that.
Hagler: Last loss was 11 years previous, which had also been revenged as had his one other loss...only one of them. Only two losses, early on career 11 years previous. Undisputed 160 pound champion, who had just off wins over HOF greats Hearns and Duran, plus undefeated Mugabi. Last fight before retirement.

So, I guess you could say that every one of those fighters was more or less undefeated, multiple time/weight champions, in about ten years. So, his oppositions only closest loss before he fought them was eight years previous, which had been avenged.... twice..... by KO as had Hagler's only losses, also twice, also by KO.

Taylor: was undefeated 24-0 IBF champion. Best win over Buddy McGirt.
Rosario: only two losses. One by close decision the year before and one by KO two years before. Was lightweight champion. Just come off wins over Juan Nazario and Livingstone Bramble.
Ramirez: only had six losses in about 100 fights, though had lost his previous fight...well, he had 'won' it against Whitaker technically. Anyway, he had lost/won his previous fight to Whitaker, would lose to Chavez, then Whitaker again, then to Coggi and retire.
Camacho: only had one loss, to Greg Haugen, whom he avenged it against the previous year to fighting Chavez. Last fight was for the WBO title against Haugen.

So, between each four, the first set had three losses all up, all of which were avenged multiple times by KO and the closest one being eight years beforehand. All were multiple division, multiple time, unified or undisputed champions and are all considered to be ATGs and among the greatest ever in their best division.

The second set only had about ten losses between them and a couple of them were avenged and the closest loss was I guess the fight before Chavez or at least the previous year or so in all cases apart from Taylor whose only black mark to that point was a draw to Howard Davis Jr.

That's pretty even in my opinion!

You're missing one VERY important point: Hearns, Duran, Hagler, and Benitez are ATG fighters......Camacho, Davis, Taylor, and Ramirez are not. Rosario comes the closest but even he doesn't make many ATG Lightweight lists......at least not amongst Boxing Historians. Quite frankly there's a gulf in class here.

Poet

[joseph5620]

You're missing one VERY important point: Hearns, Duran, Hagler, and Benitez are ATG fighters......Camacho, Davis, Taylor, and Ramirez are not. Rosario comes the closest but even he doesn't make many ATG Lightweight lists......at least not amongst Boxing Historians. Quite frankly there's a gulf in class here.

Poet

I'm assuming he was being sarcastic?



At least I hope so lol.

[StarshipTrooper]

I'm assuming he was being sarcastic?

At least I hope so lol.

Probably not.