Do you agree with Kevin Rooney

[Wild Blue Yonda]

If he was as dedicated as a fighter can be he would have a chance at Marciano's recored. All it takes is for his bio rhythems to be bad for what ever reason one night and anothers to be good and he could lose. Thats why its so hard in sports to go on long win streaks even if you have more talent and are working very hard to win. A motivated Tyson beats Bowe and Douglas, But if Bowe and Douglas had great motivation also they would be tough for Tyson.

Marciano may have been aware of this, I heard he would always eat the same thing and strangly only one big meal a day which I believe was mashed potatos and steak. There may have been other paterns he kept to that helped him fight at a high level every time.

I have said this many times in real life, but you are hinting at why I have a lot of respect for fighters who remain undefeated their entire careers. People dismissively wave their hand with, "competition wasn't so great," in regards to fighters like Lopez, Marciano, Calzaghe & co, but I tell you, almost independent of competition-level, it is extremely difficult to last years & years without a single, solitary hiccup. There's a very good reason there've been so many terrific fighters through the eons, but only a few remain unbeaten forever. Of course, the primary reason is competition-levels, but a not-insignificant part of it is a superb commitment to preparation.

Fellows like Marciano don't get enough credit for their undefeated record. If Marciano had Tyson's up-&-down focus, there's not a chance in Hell he'd have made it to 49-0-0. The consistency of an undefeated fighter in their approach to preparation should never be under-estimated, & is a special quality.

[bklynboy]

Strong post.

Regarding his heart, it gets something of a bad wrap. By that, I mean a lot of people will tell you (especially the older crowd, who remember Frazier, Ali, & other famously courageous fighting men) he had no heart whatsoever, & was a quitter. Tyson showed some commitment to a difficult task at times. Douglas, Ruddock, & Lewis all tested him pretty well, & he hung tough for extended periods. I think that says something for his heart.

I have to disagree and I was a big BIG Tyson fan in the 80s. In retrospect, knowing what we know now he just didn't have it in big fights when the game was on the line. I can excuse the Buster Douglas fight. He expected something easy, had only yes men in his corner and couldn't adjust. But he fell apart mentally again and again.

SRL rose to the occassion against Hearns (you're blowing it son). Tyson, in an even fight disqualifies himself by biting Holyfields' ear. WTF?

In imaginary head-to-head match-ups I don't see Tyson doing well if his opponent isn't scared to death (as Spinks was, or Golota was against Lewis); and I don't see any of the greats (Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Louis, Marciano, Ali ...) walking into the ring petrified of Tyson. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see Tyson keeping his cool and focus when things aren't going well.

[JAB5239]

I give him a pass for the Williams & McBride fights, because I feel a fighter years & years past their best has likely lost heart & determination, in the same way they have lost a degree of their talents (speed, for instance) & their skill-set has regressed.

Look at Chavez quitting against De La Hoya, for instance. Can either of us ever see the young Chavez throwing in the towel like that? Hardly. For that reason, I don't consider Williams & McBride indicative of Tyson's heart, though Tyson certainly was never Chavez in regards to courage (then again, who was, though?).

I understand what you're saying, but I don't see them as comparable. Chavez was past his best and getting dominated by a world class elite fighter. One of the best p4p. Williams was a fringe contender and McBride was nothing. Chavez was beaten up into quitting. Tyson just quit. If a fighter can quit to a scrub past his prime, he'll quit to a great in his prime. We saw him mentally quit 4 times in his career. There is NO other great fighter I can think of thats done that without actually throwing the fight. Can you? If you have heart and determination you always have it. Even after you skills erode. Jmo.

[IronDanHamza]

Heart and determination encompass more than just the fight itself. He didn't have the heart to train diligently or the determination to remain disciplined.

That is the key to his downfall IMO.

That said, Tyson still makes my top 10 list based on his accomplishments and how he won fights. But in no way can he ever be thought of as the greatest ever.

I entirely agree.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't see them as comparable. Chavez was past his best and getting dominated by a world class elite fighter. One of the best p4p. Williams was a fringe contender and McBride was nothing. Chavez was beaten up into quitting. Tyson just quit. If a fighter can quit to a scrub past his prime, he'll quit to a great in his prime. We saw him mentally quit 4 times in his career. There is NO other great fighter I can think of thats done that without actually throwing the fight. Can you? If you have heart and determination you always have it. Even after you skills erode. Jmo.

Point well-taken, mate. Williams & McBride certainly weren't De La Hoya, but what they all have in common was they had severely depleted versions of Chavez & Tyson alike in utterly unwinnable situations (still past his best, but a somewhat younger Chavez, in my view, effectively quit against a lesser fighter than De La Hoya, in Frankie Randall). I do take the point, though. Chavez can be given a dgeree of understanding as a result of the calibre of his rival Tyson cannot be given.

That said, I don't honestly agree if you have heart & determination, "you always have it," & I also disagree with the logic, "if a fighter can quit to a scrub past his prime, he will quit to a great in his prime," that's a rather cold, mathematical analysis applied to a very fickle & complex, illogical thing (human feelings) & is a shaky proposition at the best of times.

Heart & determination can come & go. I remember a few years ago, a colleague of mine was told he was on the fast-track to an early pinebox if he didn't do something about his weight. With that Doctor's warning, he turned around & shed sixty pounds in the space of twelve weeks. A year later, he talked forever about losing about ten pounds (having put back on a little weight) to tone-up, but never did it. Just kept ruining his own hard work. Ten pounds! How ever could he drop all that weight, but not lose a fraction of it not long after? That's a loss of heart, of commitment. We see stories like that all the time in our lives, & boxers are not exempt.

[JAB5239]

That said, I don't honestly agree if you have heart & determination, "you always have it," & I also disagree with the logic, "if a fighter can quit to a scrub past his prime, he will quit to a great in his prime," that's a rather cold, mathematical analysis applied to a very fickle & complex, illogical thing (human feelings) & is a shaky proposition at the best of times.

You may be right, but can you name any other great fighter who has done this on at least 4 occasions? Some would argue that before landing that tight hand on Botha that Mike was trying to intentionally foul out. All these things combined show a mental glitch that would prevent Tyson from ever being the greatest heavyweight.

Heart & determination can come & go. I remember a few years ago, a colleague of mine was told he was on the fast-track to an early pinebox if he didn't do something about his weight. With that Doctor's warning, he turned around & shed sixty pounds in the space of twelve weeks. A year later, he talked forever about losing about ten pounds (having put back on a little weight) to tone-up, but never did it. Just kept ruining his own hard work. Ten pounds! How ever could he drop all that weight, but not lose a fraction of it not long after? That's a loss of heart, of commitment. We see stories like that all the time in our lives, & boxers are not exempt.

That's a good point, but how many truly elite fighters lost heart and determination against guys who NEVER belonged in the ring with them? I've seen fighters get lackadaisical, but flat out quit? (shaking head)

[Holtol]

I have said this many times in real life, but you are hinting at why I have a lot of respect for fighters who remain undefeated their entire careers. People dismissively wave their hand with, "competition wasn't so great," in regards to fighters like Lopez, Marciano, Calzaghe & co, but I tell you, almost independent of competition-level, it is extremely difficult to last years & years without a single, solitary hiccup. There's a very good reason there've been so many terrific fighters through the eons, but only a few remain unbeaten forever. Of course, the primary reason is competition-levels, but a not-insignificant part of it is a superb commitment to preparation.

Fellows like Marciano don't get enough credit for their undefeated record. If Marciano had Tyson's up-&-down focus, there's not a chance in Hell he'd have made it to 49-0-0. The consistency of an undefeated fighter in their approach to preparation should never be under-estimated, & is a special quality.

Yeah, just look at pro sports how many teams go on 49 game win streaks, not to many. People these days seem to make a big deal if a fighter loses a single fight it makes me laugh. Although I am guilty of the same things at times.

People should realize even if you train hard your body is not allways the same for what ever reason. For instance I used to play pool sometimes I was not very good but sometimes I could see lines where to hit the ball. But often I could not see the lines. Why could I not see them sometimes? I don't know Its just the way I woke up that day. Somehow my brain was not working as well.

I may have been wrong about Marciano just eating potatos and steaks. Although I was watching a documentary that seemed to suggest that. But you can't believe everything you read or watch on T.V. In the documantary they said he punched with as much force as an armor piercing bullet which I find hard to believe lol. But I think Marciano stuck to certain paterns that he felt gave him the best chance to win.

Tyson and Marciano were very similar for some reason exsept Tyson had motivation problems where Marciano did not. Even their voices have some similarities.

[The_Demon]

I like Tyson, he's one of my favorites to watch. But he never showed the heart and determination to comeback and win a fight he was losing or even just struggling in. He had all the tools, he just didn't have the heart and determination of the truly great, great fighter. If he did he may have gone down as the greatest ever.

I agree with this,he will always be remembered as a great fighter for a short period and he certainly left quite a legacy,but the lack of depth too his resume means he will never be considered a true great