Harry Greb

[GJC]

Been re-reading a fair bit on Greb and the more I read about Harry Greb the more I think that an extremely good case for him being the pfp no.1 can be made.

Could certainly make a case for his resume being the best of all MWs and LHWs. At heavyweight he beat all Dempsey's challengers bar Firpo and had a better record against them. I never buy into the fact that Wills would have beat Dempsey, Dempsey thrived on big slowish fighters, Dempsey could struggle against speed. Could Greb have beaten Dempsey? Not the 1918 to1921 vintage but 1923 to1925, you couldn't totally write off his chances.
Dempsey didn't look great against Gibbons, Firpo if he could have stayed calm might have beat him. A Dempsey who was having troubles with Kearns, more interested in his new woman and hollywood than fighting? Greb would have certainly been a live dog, ok Dempsey had size but Dempsey was only too aware that size can be neutralised. Greb beat fighters bigger than Dempsey. Greb wanted Dempsey in 1918 so an unfocussed slowing Dempsey would have certainly not frightened him.
So 1924 ish its not beyond totally beyond the realms of possibility that Greb could have held MW, LHW and the heavy titles simultaneously? Lets be honest Mike McTigue wouldn't have held him off, he never did!
By the end of their 5 Tunney had Greb's number but their series wasn't as cut and dried as the historical 4-1 we were raised on. One has been re-evaluated as a draw and the 2nd fight looks like Greb wasn't served well by the verdict.
Personally I think a cautious thinking Tunney might well have let Greb go 1st
against Dempsey and picked off the winner.

So would they have changed the rules and Armstrong would never have got the chance to complete his unique treble as Greb had got there 1st? It would certainly cut into Armstrong's legacy if they did

I have always thought that SRR was the best fighter I ever saw, Greb was certainly the best fighter we never saw so is Robinson that much of a shoe in as the best p4p?

Food for thought gentlemen?

[Wild Blue Yonda]

Greb eventually took over from Monzon as my all-time number-1 at Middleweight a few years ago. His record is just absolutely phenomenal, even by all-time standards.

I could not make a top-5 all-time pound-for-pound list without him, being honest --- & I am loathe to say that of a fighter I've never even seen, given the dozens upon dozens of almost super-natually gifted fighters out there who can. What else can someone do but pick their jaw up from the floor, though, when they see that record? It's almost mythical in size. Stands in the same company as Robinson's, Armstrong's, Langford's, Charles'. The best of the best of the best.

Could Greb be number-one, ever? It's possible, yes. I probably would shy away from the concept of placing a fighter we've never seen at the very top of the tree, but in doing so, I have to acknowledge it isn't a completely fair playing field.

I would not, for what it's worth, be comfortable really speculating on whether an unseen Middleweight could successfully tackle a peak Jack Dempsey.

[Barn]

Harry Greb has one of the greatest resumes of all time, defeating 18 world champions is a remarkable feat and he only did this with ONE eye and astounding achievement. He is also the only man to present a blemish on Tunney's record and most ringsiders felt he won their second fight as well.
I place Greb soundly at #3 P4P All Time behind Langford and Robinson but, a strong case could definitely be argued for him being P4P No1 heck all of the Top 10 have an arguement of G.O.A.T.
On my MW list I have Greb the crème de la crème at #1 despite Hagler being my favourite fighter I would be lying if I said he betters Greb in achievments at the weight. (Although in a hypothetical match-up I believe Hagler takes it in an extremely tight SD.)
As for the Jack Dempsey match-up the "not-so" prime Dempsey would get decisioned by Greb IMO, but a prime is a completely different kettle of fish but, Greb does have an iron chin so is going nowhere, he could suffer a bad defeat at the hands of the HW great at his prime though.

[Kid McCoy]

Greb is...beyond explanation. His accomplishments are just astonishing. Check out the IBRO's top 20 light-heavyweights.



Greb defeated six men on that list (Tunney, Loughran, Rosenbloom, Gibbons, Dillon and Levinsky) and another (Carpentier) wouldn't fight him. Yet that's just the tip of the iceberg with Greb's career. I can't think of another fighter who defeated so many champions, claimants and top contenders from welterweight through heavyweight, and defeated most of them multiple times. I'd say he has a strong case for being #1 all time.

On Dempsey, it was probably a case of risk vs reward when it came to fighting Greb. Greb would probably have made him look bad and whatever the result, it wouldn't do Dempsey much good. If he won by KO then so what, he knocked out a middleweight. And if he lost he lost to a middleweight. Not that that justifies the match not being made as only Wills was more deserving of a title shot than Greb.

It's interesting to compare how Dempsey and Greb fared against their common opponents. Bill Brennan who gave Dempsey two hard fights barely won a round in four fights with Greb. Greb beat Tunney at least once, maybe twice or thrice. Greb beat Billy Miske twice before Dempsey got to him. Greb defeated Gibbons in what was billed as a heavyweight title eliminator and Dempsey fought the guy who lost.

[sonnyboyx2]

Lots of coulda, woulda & shoulda here as well as a huge amount of exageration.. Harry Grebb was a great fighter no doubt about it yet beating Tunney, Loughran, Rosenbloom, Gibbons, Dillon and Levinsky does not make him the winner over Jack Dempsey and to assume he beat Tunney more than the once again is open to question as Tunney himself had very valid excuses for his defeat.. Grebb should be glorified for his achievements at MW & LHW and not exagerated claims of triangle theories to make a case for him beating Dempsey...here is an interesting link:

[Wild Blue Yonda]

I have to say, though --- I have not seen a Middleweight Champion, ever, who I would favour to beat Gene Tunney, even with both eyes intact. Not Monzon, not Hagler, not Robinson...none of them.

[GJC]

a huge amount of exageration

explain the "huge" exageration please. There is no bigger fan of Dempsey than me but no fighter is invincible forever. I made point that Greb had little chance against a 1917/18 Dempsey but 1923/24 Dempsey was not that beast.

[sonnyboyx2]

explain the "huge" exageration please. There is no bigger fan of Dempsey than me but no fighter is invincible forever. I made point that Greb had little chance against a 1917/18 Dempsey but 1923/24 Dempsey was not that beast.

exaggeration in that Greb won more than one of his 5 fights against Tunney...IMO Greb's best chance of beating Dempsey would have been 1920 as i am of the opinion that Greb was very much on the slide by 1923/24... Greb himself thought he had a decent chance of out-pointing Dempsey in 1920 with some pittsburgh businessmen making an offer to Doc Kearns for Dempsey to defend his title against Greb and not Wills or Meehan. there are many newspaper reports of Greb's fights after 1922 which claim he was not the same fighter and was on the slide... Greb being P4P the No1 of all times i cannot go along with as Ray Robinson's record was superior to Greb's IMO.. it is a terrible shame we have no film-footage of Harry Greb in which to view as i am sure he would resemble Aaron Pryor

[sonnyboyx2]

Dempsey vs Greb fight very nearly came off

[Kid McCoy]

Whatever Tunney's excuses for losing to Greb, I'd say they were cancelled out by Greb being blind in one eye for most of their series. It is not exaggeration to say Greb beat Tunney more than once. Read the reports of that second fight. A lot of people though Greb won and you can also find reports which had him winning their drawn fight. Tunney only won two fights clearly.

I don't see anyone here making Greb a certainty to beat Dempsey, but it's not as if the fight be a walkover for Dempsey either. Greb did beat four men Dempsey fought in title fights as well as numerous other heavyweights. Best to best, Dempsey would probably look bad for as long as it lasted but eventually he'd catch up to Greb. No middleweight however tough is surviving Dempsey's power. There's always the off-chance Greb would out-box him though and based on the risk/reward factors, that's why I don't think Dempsey/Kearns were very interested in the fight.