Thoughts/Views On Jack Dempsey's Resume Of Wins?

[Perfect Plex]

How good is it?

???
???
???

[HaglerSteelChin]

How good is it?

???
???
???

Pretty Solid, but some of them are questionable. I am putting the infamous Jess Willard plaster of paris scandal, which i actually will give the Dempsey the benefit of the doubt.

Dempsey had a newspaper decision win over Jack Lester Johnson which he admitted was a gift decision. Often Dempsey would win by hitting low, rabbit punching, and even ignoring going to the neutral corner. His victory over Luis Firpo is tainted as Dempsey was knock out of the ring and than helped back in by writers and reporters. This after already doing his customary low blows and rabbit punching.

When he hit Jack Sharkey low 4 times, Sharkey complained to the ref and Dempsey than responded with a left hook to knockout Sharkey. By all accounts, Sharkey was winning all rounds until the 7th round knockout.


We always hear about the "long count" in the second Tunney fight. But few talk about the low blows and rabbit punching used in that same fight. In addition, Dempsey didn't immediately go to the neutral corner and the ref going by the ISAC law didn't need to count until the fighter went to the neutral corner. Was Tunney really hurt? Could he have gotten up in time? Nobody can say 100% either way? Tunney was very intelligent and he took the 9 seconds to fully get his legs back. Dempsey still had about 2 minutes to knock him out, yet Tunney still made him miss while going on his bike, so i think he was not as badly hurt as many thought he was.

I am not a Dempsey hater, just want to put many of his wins in perspective. His great wins as Gibbons, Carpentier, Willard, and Levinsky can't be taken away. He also help make the sport as popular as ever and made some of the biggest mega fights in the first half of the 20th century. I think of him as an ATG that is often put higher than he deserves. Some have him top 10 ATG,, and i think that is too high. Gene Tunney beat every opponent he ever faced, and corrected his loss to Greb once officially and had 2 ND's that many thought he won. Greb pretty much owned Dempsey in sparring sessions, which we know Dempsey never held back in sparring, so it shows how superior Tunney was as a boxer.

Of course, there is the issue that Dempsey ducked black fighters as Harry Wills and Sam Langford. After Sharkey beat Wills, it was great news for Dempsey as he would fight Sharkey instead. So that also must be equated in judging his legacy.

Overall, i think Dempsey had a solid resume but many of his wins were questionable with the tactics employed. I think Dempsey deserves to be top 25 ATG, but not top 10 as some think.

I expect Red K for this post.

[jrosales13]

Pretty Solid, but some of them are questionable. I am putting the infamous Jess Willard plaster of paris scandal, which i actually will give the Dempsey the benefit of the doubt.

Dempsey had a newspaper decision win over Jack Lester Johnson which he admitted was a gift decision. Often Dempsey would win by hitting low, rabbit punching, and even ignoring going to the neutral corner. His victory over Luis Firpo is tainted as Dempsey was knock out of the ring and than helped back in by writers and reporters. This after already doing his customary low blows and rabbit punching.

When he hit Jack Sharkey low 4 times, Sharkey complained to the ref and Dempsey than responded with a left hook to knockout Sharkey. By all accounts, Sharkey was winning all rounds until the 7th round knockout.


We always hear about the "long count" in the second Tunney fight. But few talk about the low blows and rabbit punching used in that same fight. In addition, Dempsey didn't immediately go to the neutral corner and the ref going by the ISAC law didn't need to count until the fighter went to the neutral corner. Was Tunney really hurt? Could he have gotten up in time? Nobody can say 100% either way? Tunney was very intelligent and he took the 9 seconds to fully get his legs back. Dempsey still had about 2 minutes to knock him out, yet Tunney still made him miss while going on his bike, so i think he was not as badly hurt as many thought he was.

I am not a Dempsey hater, just want to put many of his wins in perspective. His great wins as Gibbons, Carpentier, Willard, and Levinsky can't be taken away. He also help make the sport as popular as ever and made some of the biggest mega fights in the first half of the 20th century. I think of him as an ATG that is often put higher than he deserves. Some have him top 10 ATG,, and i think that is too high. Gene Tunney beat every opponent he ever faced, and corrected his loss to Greb once officially and had 2 ND's that many thought he won. Greb pretty much owned Dempsey in sparring sessions, which we know Dempsey never held back in sparring, so it shows how superior Tunney was as a boxer.

Of course, there is the issue that Dempsey ducked black fighters as Harry Wills and Sam Langford. After Sharkey beat Wills, it was great news for Dempsey as he would fight Sharkey instead. So that also must be equated in judging his legacy.

Overall, i think Dempsey had a solid resume but many of his wins were questionable with the tactics employed. I think Dempsey deserves to be top 25 ATG, but not top 10 as some think.

I expect Red K for this post.

I agree that Dempsey ducked Langford. But, I can't say that Dempsey ducked Wills. Dempsey signed to fight Wills from what I gathered more than once.

From what I also heard Wills management made fights very difficult to get done.

[sonnyboyx2]

90yrs ago and with very little footage available it is difficult to make an acurate judgement on Dempsey and his opponents but what cannot ever be denied is that Jack Dempsey was the most exciting fighter in the entire world, i do not go along with the line that Dempsey avoided Langford, Wills or any other fighter as i feel it was a sign of the times why White skinned fighters never fought black skinned fighters yet as far as Dempsey's skills go i rate him as the most ferocious fighting machine in boxing history like what Jim Jacobs & Mike Tyson did and both those guys are experts on boxing history.

[jrosales13]

90yrs ago and with very little footage available it is difficult to make an acurate judgement on Dempsey and his opponents but what cannot ever be denied is that Jack Dempsey was the most exciting fighter in the entire world, i do not go along with the line that Dempsey avoided Langford, Wills or any other fighter as i feel it was a sign of the times why White skinned fighters never fought black skinned fighters yet as far as Dempsey's skills go i rate him as the most ferocious fighting machine in boxing history like what Jim Jacobs & Mike Tyson did and both those guys are experts on boxing history.

Harry Greb did it in those exact same times. So why couldn't Dempsey? I am not going to give Dempsey a pass for not fighting Langford. IMO he ducked him however I don't think he ducked Wills.

[sonnyboyx2]

Harry Greb did it in those exact same times. So why couldn't Dempsey? I am not going to give Dempsey a pass for not fighting Langford. IMO he ducked him however I don't think he ducked Wills.

Langford refused fights for the heavyweight title against Jim Jeffries and i rate Dempsey a far more dangerous fight for Langford who was at the tail-end of his career in the mid 1920s whereas Dempsey was at his ultimate prime at that time, IMO Dempsey would have murdered Langford

[HaglerSteelChin]

I am not trying to be a Dempsey hater or troll here. So i will present some more info on the whole issue about black fighters and the Wills Saga.

I think JRosales is talking about Paddy Mullins who was the manager of Harry Wills. Mullins rejected $250,000 for Wills to fight Tunney, than the winner fight Dempsey. Mullins felt Wills didn't need to fight a mandatory but deserved a shot at Dempsey immediately. The NYSAC agreed with a 2-1 vote in 1926 that if Dempsey would defend his title in NY that he had to fight Wills. Under pressure, they reveresed with one dissenting vote. This became trivial as the SLC would deny a license to Dempsey to fight in NY unless he fought Wills. So pretty much Dempsey ignored that ruling and went to Philly for Tunney.

Dempsey felt he had a good shot at deafeating Wills. But he didn't want to fight him since "it went wrong, it might kill the business." This is to me is not valid, since if he felt so confident that he would beat Wills, which he had a shot, than he takes the fight. This is why he fought Tunney in Philly, he had no license to fight in NY due to not fighting Wills.

Dempsey did fight a few blacks before becoming HW champion. I think Dempsey with his celebrity power which was even bigger than Babe ruth, could have overruled Tex Rickard, Kearns, or any of his business people. The fact is that he fought no black as HW champion. I stil feel if he thought he could defeat Wills, he takes that fight. But he took Tunney who was perceived as easier than Wills a 6 feet 4 fighter who beat Langford several times.


There was plenty of pressure not to make the fight happen due to the Jack Johnson era. Many people didn't like a black guy having the title who was as flamboyant as Johnson. Moreover, there were many racial riots after Johnson beat Jeffries that resulted in the deaths of blacks. Dempsey was the cash cow of the sport, and his promoter TexRickard vowed never to put him in with a black fighter.


Sonnyboxx is correct there was a major issue about fighting blacks due to the social pressure and unrest that the Johnson era caused. But there were already black-white championship fights (joe gans, Johnson, original joe walcott etc).

Can we put the full blame on Dempsey? Probably not, but i still think the power Dempsey had could have allowed him to fight Wills and obey the original NYAC and SLC decisions.

[Greatest1942]

Harry Greb did it in those exact same times. So why couldn't Dempsey? I am not going to give Dempsey a pass for not fighting Langford. IMO he ducked him however I don't think he ducked Wills.

Before Jack Johnson no of black heavy champion = 0.
Next black heavy champ after Johnson = Joe Louis

Before Jack Johnson there were other great fighters who were black and champs (Joe Gans) and after that too.

The distinction in heavyweights was far more than at other weights. After Johnson no one wanted another black champion at heavy weight so the opposition faced there was far more than at other weights. Giving Willis a black a shot at the Heavy title was a big no. No one wanted back the days of 'Unforgivable Blackness,' and the search for the “Great White Hope.?br />
I am not saying for a moment there was no racism at other weights but after Johnson Americans never wanted another black heavy champion and Willis I believe became the victim . At another weight he might have got a shot at the champ. It took Joe Louis to finally break that shackle...and there were plenty more black heavy champs after that..

Dempsey himself stated that he avoided Sam Langford "he'll flatten me". But Sam and dempsey was due to be matched up at Dempsey's very early age and I believe Dempsey was righting in not fighting him as it would have been suicide for a young inexperienced Dempsey to go up against Sam Langford.

[Greatest1942]

I am not trying to be a Dempsey hater or troll here. So i will present some more info on the whole issue about black fighters and the Wills Saga.

I think JRosales is talking about Paddy Mullins who was the manager of Harry Wills. Mullins rejected $250,000 for Wills to fight Tunney, than the winner fight Dempsey. Mullins felt Wills didn't need to fight a mandatory but deserved a shot at Dempsey immediately. The NYSAC agreed with a 2-1 vote in 1926 that if Dempsey would defend his title in NY that he had to fight Wills. Under pressure, they reveresed with one dissenting vote. This became trivial as the SLC would deny a license to Dempsey to fight in NY unless he fought Wills. So pretty much Dempsey ignored that ruling and went to Philly for Tunney.

Dempsey felt he had a good shot at deafeating Wills. But he didn't want to fight him since "it went wrong, it might kill the business." This is to me is not valid, since if he felt so confident that he would beat Wills, which he had a shot, than he takes the fight. This is why he fought Tunney in Philly, he had no license to fight in NY due to not fighting Wills.

Dempsey did fight a few blacks before becoming HW champion. I think Dempsey with his celebrity power which was even bigger than Babe ruth, could have overruled Tex Rickard, Kearns, or any of his business people. The fact is that he fought no black as HW champion. I stil feel if he thought he could defeat Wills, he takes that fight. But he took Tunney who was perceived as easier than Wills a 6 feet 4 fighter who beat Langford several times.


There was plenty of pressure not to make the fight happen due to the Jack Johnson era. Many people didn't like a black guy having the title who was as flamboyant as Johnson. Moreover, there were many racial riots after Johnson beat Jeffries that resulted in the deaths of blacks. Dempsey was the cash cow of the sport, and his promoter TexRickard vowed never to put him in with a black fighter.


Sonnyboxx is correct there was a major issue about fighting blacks due to the social pressure and unrest that the Johnson era caused. But there were already black-white championship fights (joe gans, Johnson, original joe walcott etc).

Can we put the full blame on Dempsey? Probably not, but i still think the power Dempsey had could have allowed him to fight Wills and obey the original NYAC and SLC decisions.

Judging from their fights against Jack Sharkey Dempsey would have beaten Willis at 1926-27. Yes Sharkey was winning against Dempsey but it was not like against Willis whom he hammered from Pillar to post in their prior encounter, Willis's performance against Sharkey was dismal. Dempsey at that period would have beaten him. Put them in a fight in 1919 it would be a very close one. Willis slided very badly after 1925 and was no where near 1919.

Yes Dempsey fought dirty so did Greb,Fullmer , Saddler and even Ali was known for doing lots of fouls (Ali-Frazier 2) that doesn't diminish his greatness.

P.S :- You stated yourself the problem with a black champ after Johnson. When Dempsey was a contender he had to fight anybody to put himself in a position to be the challenger for the world title. But after he was the champ he could overrule others but Sir what if there were race riots again? Then we will be sitting here arguing why he did face Willis ?Again I am not saying what Dempsey did was right, but just that they might have erred by being over cautious. We have no idea how vitrolic the sentiments of people were back then...

And yes about the plaster of Paris :-
IT HAS BEEN conclusively PROVEN WRONG
AN IMPOSSIBILTY STATED BY THE INVENTOR OF THE PRODUCT WHEN SWORN UNDER OATH
AND TESTED BY BIG CAT WILLIAMS ON THE HEAVY BAG.

[Tiozzo]

Pretty Solid, but some of them are questionable. I am putting the infamous Jess Willard plaster of paris scandal, which i actually will give the Dempsey the benefit of the doubt.

Dempsey had a newspaper decision win over Jack Lester Johnson which he admitted was a gift decision. Often Dempsey would win by hitting low, rabbit punching, and even ignoring going to the neutral corner. His victory over Luis Firpo is tainted as Dempsey was knock out of the ring and than helped back in by writers and reporters. This after already doing his customary low blows and rabbit punching.

When he hit Jack Sharkey low 4 times, Sharkey complained to the ref and Dempsey than responded with a left hook to knockout Sharkey. By all accounts, Sharkey was winning all rounds until the 7th round knockout.


We always hear about the "long count" in the second Tunney fight. But few talk about the low blows and rabbit punching used in that same fight. In addition, Dempsey didn't immediately go to the neutral corner and the ref going by the ISAC law didn't need to count until the fighter went to the neutral corner. Was Tunney really hurt? Could he have gotten up in time? Nobody can say 100% either way? Tunney was very intelligent and he took the 9 seconds to fully get his legs back. Dempsey still had about 2 minutes to knock him out, yet Tunney still made him miss while going on his bike, so i think he was not as badly hurt as many thought he was.

I am not a Dempsey hater, just want to put many of his wins in perspective. His great wins as Gibbons, Carpentier, Willard, and Levinsky can't be taken away. He also help make the sport as popular as ever and made some of the biggest mega fights in the first half of the 20th century. I think of him as an ATG that is often put higher than he deserves. Some have him top 10 ATG,, and i think that is too high. Gene Tunney beat every opponent he ever faced, and corrected his loss to Greb once officially and had 2 ND's that many thought he won. Greb pretty much owned Dempsey in sparring sessions, which we know Dempsey never held back in sparring, so it shows how superior Tunney was as a boxer.

Of course, there is the issue that Dempsey ducked black fighters as Harry Wills and Sam Langford. After Sharkey beat Wills, it was great news for Dempsey as he would fight Sharkey instead. So that also must be equated in judging his legacy.

Overall, i think Dempsey had a solid resume but many of his wins were questionable with the tactics employed. I think Dempsey deserves to be top 25 ATG, but not top 10 as some think.

I expect Red K for this post.

you will definitely hurt the feelings of some nostalgic fans

Dempsey may have been rough and dirty, but a lot of fighters were back then, and many greats were (Greb was dirty, Saddler was dirty,...), so I do believe you cannot use the fact that he was dirty to devaluate his achievements

And you got to protect yourself at all times, something Sharkey didn't do when he turned his head towards the ref after getting hit low by Jack