Is Ray Robinson's speed overstated?

[BigStereotype]

Now let me say this first. Robinson was a fantastic fighter. Incredible power and general offensive awareness and capable of some pretty cool looking defensive moves, even if he was there to be hit more often than he should have been. But I was watching him fight Basilio (I'm not sure if it's 1 or 2, the file I downloaded didn't say) and he looked quick, but I all I could do was list off fighters who were definitely faster. Now I think that Robinson had aged by that point, but those fights are the highest quality I could find and it's hard to accurately gauge speed when the film has a tendency to speed up and slow down. So was Robinson really as fast as everyone said and if you think so, could you show me a clip of him when he was really on fire?

[TheGreatA]

You can't expect a 37 year old man to be as fast as he used to be. There were several fighters that I'd say were as fast as Robinson, but few who were as fast and hit as hard.

[BigStereotype]

Hmmm, he looks slightly quicker than in the Basillio fight, but nowhere near the unmatchable speed demon that guys like Bert Sugar make him out to be. He hits harder than Ray Leonard, but I think that Leonard was in the same league in terms of power and way faster. I think that his stamina is more impressive than anything, that he keeps winging those haymakers all night long.

[Sugarj]

The final round of Turpin 2 had some real fast combinations from memory, some of his right hands were eye blink stuff!

The KO of Bobo Olsen in their third fight was a bloody quick combination.

And as above, the knockout combination of Graziano was very quick.

He could double and triple up very quick on his left hooks. This was probably his fastest punch. Its also useful to remember that his best work at welterweight eludes us in terms of fight film, being younger and lighter would favour his hands being quicker still.

I gather that Ali's jab was proven with a synchroniser to be slightly quicker than Ray's. I think that Roy Jones, Meldrick Taylor, Floyd Patterson and possibly Ray Leonard had slightly quicker hands. But Ray was certainly one of the fastest punchers in history.

[Scott9945]

If we could ever see quality footage of Robinson at 147, I suspect his speed and skills would leave us in awe.

[TheGreatA]

Hmmm, he looks slightly quicker than in the Basillio fight, but nowhere near the unmatchable speed demon that guys like Bert Sugar make him out to be. He hits harder than Ray Leonard, but I think that Leonard was in the same league in terms of power and way faster. I think that his stamina is more impressive than anything, that he keeps winging those haymakers all night long.

One lesson anyone should learn from the start is not to take Bert Sugar all too seriously. He doesn't represent the average boxing historian. In fact he gets most of his knowledge from people he has talked to over the years instead of extensive research. He then passes it as fact without even caring to confirm whether it's true or not. With Sugar, facts do not get in the way of a good story.

Leonard threw some amazingly fast flurries of punches, but I wouldn't say he looks any faster when he put power behind his punches. Nearly every punch Robinson tried to hit you with was a knockout punch. Keep in mind that the footage we have of Robinson is an over 30 year old Robinson above his best weight, comparable to Leonard's middleweight efforts, where he looked slower and more hittable.

[PEBBLES!]

Mayweather was faster at Lightweight than he is at Welterweight. Leonard was faster at Welterweight than he was at Middleweight.


We only have Robinson's Middleweight and Light Heavyweight footage to judge him by. I can almost guarantee he was faster in his prime at welterweight, which we have no footage of.



Here is Ray as a 19 year old Featherweight Amateur.

[Greatest1942]

Let me state again in a different fashion what the GreatA had already stated.
Tell me who at age 38 looked faster than Ray Robinson and still hit as hard.

Lets look at Leonard and Robinson. Both had met some granite chined hard hitting opponents at their prime.
1)Leonard-Hagler --> Leonard gets on his bicycle and runs all night, throws pitty patty combinations that never make even a dent at Haglers chin. Leonard never sat on his punches all his punches were more like slaps with no leverage. He did well with it but never compare him with Robinson who rarely left aggression at home and was a KO artist which Leonard never was. When you sit down on your punches you loose may be a fraction of second but gain more power. Try that yourself.

2) Sugar Ray--Gene Fullmer --> Gene had an amazing chin never knocked out before and never after and that for a fighter who never learnt proper defense. "When Gene was swinging hard, he was leaving his chin open. I kept telling him to keep one hand up if he was going to swing like that.” --Jenson. Hagler had a better chin IMO but if he fought like Gene(Hagler was very skilled and never the raw slugger he is portrayed as) he would have been dropped too, not knocked out but dropped.. A guy with this type of defense had to have a great chin to negate all the heavy hitters, Gene fought unlike today where the fighters are more protected than the Tigers. Sugar Ray knocked him out with one punch at his ripe old age.

"It’s a sensation I’d never had before and one I don’t necessarily want again.
Robinson’s best punch was any punch he could hit you with."--Gene fullmer on his only knockout loss.

Take a look at Sugar Ray at 38-40 and tell me what this guy would have been like when he was 25-30 thats when a fighter is generally at his fastest. And yes he did not run like Leonard, for unlike Leonard, Ray really could and wanted to knock his opponent the **** out. I dont belive if Leonard fought at 40 he will be faster than Ray at 40.(Forget about punching power, Ray was #11 in rings poll for the 100 greatest punchers of all time, with Leonard probably not coming in even 300 even if they made a list to that range)

Ray was the master, he had speed,punching power everything...Look at everything he has, and you will find Ray used everything that he had, and combined them in a near perfect package more so than Leonard or anyone after that.

[Spartacus Sully]

Robinson had an ideal physique nearly a mirror image porportianally to bob fitzsimmons decades earlier. (cept for the height and weight)

that he can throw those haymakers all night long and throw them just as fast as his opponets throw normal punches is a testimate to what it means to have 11 3/4 inch biceps when every one else has 14 in biceps.

[Sugarj]

Let me state again in a different fashion what the GreatA had already stated.
Tell me who at age 38 looked faster than Ray Robinson and still hit as hard.

Lets look at Leonard and Robinson. Both had met some granite chined hard hitting opponents at their prime.
1)Leonard-Hagler --> Leonard gets on his bicycle and runs all night, throws pitty patty combinations that never make even a dent at Haglers chin. Leonard never sat on his punches all his punches were more like slaps with no leverage. He did well with it but never compare him with Robinson who rarely left aggression at home and was a KO artist which Leonard never was. When you sit down on your punches you loose may be a fraction of second but gain more power. Try that yourself.

2) Sugar Ray--Gene Fullmer --> Gene had an amazing chin never knocked out before and never after and that for a fighter who never learnt proper defense. "When Gene was swinging hard, he was leaving his chin open. I kept telling him to keep one hand up if he was going to swing like that.” --Jenson. Hagler had a better chin IMO but if he fought like Gene(Hagler was very skilled and never the raw slugger he is portrayed as) he would have been dropped too, not knocked out but dropped.. A guy with this type of defense had to have a great chin to negate all the heavy hitters, Gene fought unlike today where the fighters are more protected than the Tigers. Sugar Ray knocked him out with one punch at his ripe old age.

"It’s a sensation I’d never had before and one I don’t necessarily want again.
Robinson’s best punch was any punch he could hit you with."--Gene fullmer on his only knockout loss.

Take a look at Sugar Ray at 38-40 and tell me what this guy would have been like when he was 25-30 thats when a fighter is generally at his fastest. And yes he did not run like Leonard, for unlike Leonard, Ray really could and wanted to knock his opponent the **** out. I dont belive if Leonard fought at 40 he will be faster than Ray at 40.(Forget about punching power, Ray was #11 in rings poll for the 100 greatest punchers of all time, with Leonard probably not coming in even 300 even if they made a list to that range)

Ray was the master, he had speed,punching power everything...Look at everything he has, and you will find Ray used everything that he had, and combined them in a near perfect package more so than Leonard or anyone after that.

I'd argue that Leonard earlier on (in the late 70s) was very much a KO artist, but you've made some excellent points. Robinson, even in his late 30s was a revelation. He surely would have been dazzling in his early to mid 20s at welterweight.

The fastest hands I've seen in a 38-40 year old might well have been Roy Jones when he fought Jeff Lacy. Granted Lacy had looked near shot since Calzaghe took him took him to school, but some of Roy's combinations that night were near as dammit as fast as in his prime. It was Roy's last great performance.