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ReEvaluating Past Greats (In regard to Eastern Euros)

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    ReEvaluating Past Greats (In regard to Eastern Euros)

    *First of all, this thread is not intended to be impolite, or racist. So lets all be mature, and talk about things civilly*

    It's no secret the vast amount of success that Eastern Euros have had in pro boxing in the last 10 years.

    As of today, Eastern Euros essentially dominate heavyweight and cruiserweight divisions. There is a very strong Eastern Euro presence in Super Middleweight, Middleweight, and there is notable presences in Light Heavyweight, Light Middleweight, and so on. Not to mention Eastern European and overall nonAmerican success in the amateurs has been increasingly proliferant for over 20 years.

    It would be entirely accurate to suggest today that Eastern Euros are perhaps more successful than Americans, many of which are black.

    When people talk about great boxers of history, many times they focus on Black American boxers from the past.

    There is a couple problems with this, namely;
    1) In the 1950s, 60s, 70s, etc Boxing was much less competitive in terms of sheer numbers. The actual size of the talent pool was less. Today, there are 17 weight divisions each with 1,200 boxers per division according to BoxRec. In the 1950s, you had only 8 weight divisions with maybe 500 boxers per division.

    So, we are dealing with a much small talent pool when looking at fighter's from the past. Boxing was less competitive in the past, in terms of sheer numbers.

    2) In the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s etc Boxing was restricted to only a few countries. There were no Russians competing, there were no East Germans competing, there were little Cubans competing, there were no Ukrainians competing. This changed after the fall of the Berlin Wall. At this time, it was only Black Americans fighting other Americans, or British. The odd Italian or Western German. But no Eastern Euros whatsoever. Americans did not have to fight Eastern Euros in this time period. Boxing was not a global sport.

    3) People have an erroneous time-bias tendency to assume that "things from the past were better". That is to say, that what is viewed today as being good. 5 years from now, when looking back, people will overexaggerate and say "was great". This is a natural time bias to have, but we should be aware that athletes always improve with time both physically and theoretically. This is why world records are always being broken.

    When people talk about Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray, Earnie Shavers etc. We fail mention that these guys were champions in a time when boxing was relatively non-competitive and confined only to USA and Commonwealth Europe.

    Times have changed, and boxing has become much more global.

    Would things have been different had Eastern Euros been competing 20 and 30 years ago? The evidence certainly suggests so.

    #2
    Wladimir Klitschko today, is champion of heavyweight with over 1,200 competitors.

    Muhammad Ali, for example was champion at a time when only maybe 500 competitors were in the heavyweight division (and almost all of which were fellow Americans, or commonwealth Euros)

    Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, etc never had to deal with fighting Eastern Euros. Also, boxing was less competitive in those times and we need to remember that.

    I think its entirely plausible to suggest that boxing may have had a much different past had Eastern Euros competed.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Who are you? View Post
      Wladimir Klitschko today, is champion of heavyweight with over 1,200 competitors.

      Muhammad Ali, for example was champion at a time when only maybe 500 competitors were in the heavyweight division (and almost all of which were fellow Americans, or commonwealth Euros)
      Numbers don't indicate level of competition. Of those 1,200 heavyweights, if that is the number of active heavyweights, probably 1,000 are completely irrelevant non-contenders.

      Comment


        #4
        Someone has a new alt

        Poet

        Comment


          #5
          Do you have a source for there being 1,200 boxers per division in 17 divisions today and only 500 per division in 8 divisions in the fifties?

          It doesn't sound credible to me even though eastern euro's didn't turn pro.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Who are you? View Post
            *First of all, this thread is not intended to be impolite, or racist. So lets all be mature, and talk about things civilly*

            It's no secret the vast amount of success that Eastern Euros have had in pro boxing in the last 10 years.

            As of today, Eastern Euros essentially dominate heavyweight and cruiserweight divisions. There is a very strong Eastern Euro presence in Super Middleweight, Middleweight, and there is notable presences in Light Heavyweight, Light Middleweight, and so on. Not to mention Eastern European and overall nonAmerican success in the amateurs has been increasingly proliferant for over 20 years.

            It would be entirely accurate to suggest today that Eastern Euros are perhaps more successful than Americans, many of which are black.

            When people talk about great boxers of history, many times they focus on Black American boxers from the past.

            There is a couple problems with this, namely;
            1) In the 1950s, 60s, 70s, etc Boxing was much less competitive in terms of sheer numbers. The actual size of the talent pool was less. Today, there are 17 weight divisions each with 1,200 boxers per division according to BoxRec. In the 1950s, you had only 8 weight divisions with maybe 500 boxers per division.

            So, we are dealing with a much small talent pool when looking at fighter's from the past. Boxing was less competitive in the past, in terms of sheer numbers.

            2) In the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s etc Boxing was restricted to only a few countries. There were no Russians competing, there were no East Germans competing, there were little Cubans competing, there were no Ukrainians competing. This changed after the fall of the Berlin Wall. At this time, it was only Black Americans fighting other Americans, or British. The odd Italian or Western German. But no Eastern Euros whatsoever. Americans did not have to fight Eastern Euros in this time period. Boxing was not a global sport.

            3) People have an erroneous time-bias tendency to assume that "things from the past were better". That is to say, that what is viewed today as being good. 5 years from now, when looking back, people will overexaggerate and say "was great". This is a natural time bias to have, but we should be aware that athletes always improve with time both physically and theoretically. This is why world records are always being broken.

            When people talk about Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray, Earnie Shavers etc. We fail mention that these guys were champions in a time when boxing was relatively non-competitive and confined only to USA and Commonwealth Europe.

            Times have changed, and boxing has become much more global.

            Would things have been different had Eastern Euros been competing 20 and 30 years ago? The evidence certainly suggests so.

            How Dare YOu! Come to the boxing history section with facts and numbers. Do you know how hard youre going to be banned? You are going to be banned so hard. You are gonna be banned harder and faster than Fireman Gipsy Joe Murphy could KO Vitali Klitshcko.

            Did you not get the memo? No one boxes anymore. Everyone plays football and basketball. Thats where the money is. Sure Floyd can make more in one fight than any football or basketball player could make in a year. Oh and itd be easier because no one boxes and all the great boxers are playing football. Didnt you hear? Kobe would kill Adamek. Kill him.

            So get out of here little troll boy. This is a forum for adults. I am not even going to attempt to come up with sources challenging the validity of yours, because you are wrong.

            Comment


              #7
              "Facts and numbers" are supposed to have a source. Seems like wild speculation to me. Boxing was far more popular in the 60's and 70's though I'll admit that the interest has increased in Europe over the past 10 years, especially in Germany.

              I'm sure the great Ionas Chepulis would have dominated the 1960's and 70's though just like he dominated a young George Foreman in the amateurs.

              Jorge Luis Gonzales also showed how well a Cuban amateur could dominate opponents in the pros as he dominated in the amateurs by winning gift decisions over men half his age in 4 round bouts.

              Nothing was stopping Teofilo Stevenson from stepping in the ring with Muhammad Ali who called him out for a million dollar payday except his willingness to stay in Cuba. Can hardly blame Ali or any other heavyweight in the 70's for not being able to fight opponents who weren't allowed to fight.
              Last edited by TheGreatA; 08-29-2010, 03:23 PM.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
                "Facts and numbers" are supposed to have a source. Seems like wild speculation to me. Boxing was far more popular in the 60's and 70's though I'll admit that the interest has increased in Europe over the past 10 years, especially in Germany.

                I'm sure the great Ionas Chepulis would have dominated the 1960's and 70's though just like he dominated a young George Foreman in the amateurs.

                Jorge Luis Gonzales also showed how well a Cuban amateur could dominate opponents in the pros as he dominated in the amateurs by winning gift decisions over men half his age in 4 round bouts.

                Nothing was stopping Teofilo Stevenson from stepping in the ring with Muhammad Ali who called him out for a million dollar payday except his willingness to stay in Cuba. Can hardly blame Ali or any other heavyweight in the 70's for not being able to fight opponents who weren't allowed to fight.

                but you blame heavyweights for not being able to fight opponents who dont exist.......................................right. ........

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Die Antwoord View Post
                  but you blame heavyweights for not being able to fight opponents who dont exist.......................................right. ........
                  I don't blame anybody for anything.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Who are you? View Post
                    *First of all, this thread is not intended to be impolite, or racist. So lets all be mature, and talk about things civilly*

                    It's no secret the vast amount of success that Eastern Euros have had in pro boxing in the last 10 years.

                    As of today, Eastern Euros essentially dominate heavyweight and cruiserweight divisions. There is a very strong Eastern Euro presence in Super Middleweight, Middleweight, and there is notable presences in Light Heavyweight, Light Middleweight, and so on. Not to mention Eastern European and overall nonAmerican success in the amateurs has been increasingly proliferant for over 20 years.

                    It would be entirely accurate to suggest today that Eastern Euros are perhaps more successful than Americans, many of which are black.

                    When people talk about great boxers of history, many times they focus on Black American boxers from the past.

                    There is a couple problems with this, namely;
                    1) In the 1950s, 60s, 70s, etc Boxing was much less competitive in terms of sheer numbers. The actual size of the talent pool was less. Today, there are 17 weight divisions each with 1,200 boxers per division according to BoxRec. In the 1950s, you had only 8 weight divisions with maybe 500 boxers per division.

                    So, we are dealing with a much small talent pool when looking at fighter's from the past. Boxing was less competitive in the past, in terms of sheer numbers.

                    2) In the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s etc Boxing was restricted to only a few countries. There were no Russians competing, there were no East Germans competing, there were little Cubans competing, there were no Ukrainians competing. This changed after the fall of the Berlin Wall. At this time, it was only Black Americans fighting other Americans, or British. The odd Italian or Western German. But no Eastern Euros whatsoever. Americans did not have to fight Eastern Euros in this time period. Boxing was not a global sport.

                    3) People have an erroneous time-bias tendency to assume that "things from the past were better". That is to say, that what is viewed today as being good. 5 years from now, when looking back, people will overexaggerate and say "was great". This is a natural time bias to have, but we should be aware that athletes always improve with time both physically and theoretically. This is why world records are always being broken.

                    When people talk about Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray, Earnie Shavers etc. We fail mention that these guys were champions in a time when boxing was relatively non-competitive and confined only to USA and Commonwealth Europe.

                    Times have changed, and boxing has become much more global.

                    Would things have been different had Eastern Euros been competing 20 and 30 years ago? The evidence certainly suggests so.
                    all those #'s you post are irrelevant.as i try to explain to certain blockheads on here,more does not = better.its usually the other way around.and regardless of numbers,most champs are usually only fighting guys ranked within the top 10 or rankings anyways.even if you want to give a heavy 100 career fights,if the division is as small as 500 or as large as 1200,there is no way to accurately asses how many legit contenders are in that talent pool

                    im not 1 who buys into that nonsense that 1 era is paticulary better than another.the klitschos get alot of hate cause the ease at which they beat thier opponents and their style of boxing.yhey really take the thrill that guys like ali had,because he couldnt dominate like them

                    Comment

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