Sonny Liston>Joe Frazier?

[MeccaOfBoxing]

On this thread, most posters etc Jab, Poet, etc had Liston rated over Frazier. And I was pretty shocked.
//krikya360.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=417468

And am a bit puzzled. Frazier had the better wins & the better title reign.

Frazier beat 31-0 Ali, LHW Champ Bob Foster, Oscar Bonavena x2, Eddie Machen, George Chuvalo, 23-0 Buster Mathis, Jerry Quarry, & Jimmy Ellis x2.

Frazier made 9 defences of his Heavyweight title & reigned for 5 years.

Liston beat Cleveland Williams x2, Nino Valdes, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Floyd Patterson x2.

Liston made one defene of his title.

Discuss

[boxing boy]

On this thread, most posters etc Jab, Poet, etc had Liston rated over Frazier. And I was pretty shocked.
//krikya360.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=417468

And am a bit puzzled. Frazier had the better wins & the better title reign.

Frazier beat 31-0 Ali, LHW Champ Bob Foster, Oscar Bonavena x2, Eddie Machen, George Chuvalo, 23-0 Buster Mathis, Jerry Quarry, & Jimmy Ellis x2.

Frazier made 9 defences of his Heavyweight title & reigned for 5 years.

Liston beat Cleveland Williams x2, Nino Valdes, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Floyd Patterson x2.

Liston made one defene of his title.

Discuss

Liston Brutally DESTROYED a very good Heavyweight Division.It was like a man vs boys.Yes,he won almost every round against the very skilled and brillant boxer Eddie Machen as well.A old and over the hill Machen gave Joe Frazier alot better fight than he did Liston.Read Joe Frazier's book and what he said about his fight with Eddie Machen!!

Liston would also beat Frazier head to head,destroying him in brutal fashion within' 3 rounds.

[SBleeder]

I would say that Frazier had a slightly better resume than Frazier, although Liston completely cleaned out the heavyweight division save for Clay.

Liston would destroy Frazier head to head. Probably faster than Foreman did.

[StarshipTrooper]

On this thread, most posters etc Jab, Poet, etc had Liston rated over Frazier. And I was pretty shocked.
//krikya360.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=417468

And am a bit puzzled. Frazier had the better wins & the better title reign.

Frazier beat 31-0 Ali, LHW Champ Bob Foster, Oscar Bonavena x2, Eddie Machen, George Chuvalo, 23-0 Buster Mathis, Jerry Quarry, & Jimmy Ellis x2.

Frazier made 9 defences of his Heavyweight title & reigned for 5 years.

Liston beat Cleveland Williams x2, Nino Valdes, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Floyd Patterson x2.

Liston made one defene of his title.

Discuss

It depends on the criteria you're using to rate them. If you're going soley by accomplishments then I can see having Frazier higher. The problem is that's not how I rate fighters. I'm primarily concerned with who's BETTER rather than who garnished more accolades. Look at it this way, my concern isn't whether the 1970s Miami Dolphins had a greater accomplishment than the 1970s Pittsburgh Steelers (An undefeated season capped by a Super Bowl win); but rather I'm concerned with which of them is the better team (which I believe is certainly the Steelers).

Poet

[Obama]

Liston wasn't just better, he accomplished more...It's not remotely close.

Giving Frazier every benefit of every doubt, he beat 12 quality fighters in his career. Liston beat more than twice that amount. The numbers just don't add up. Frazier cherry picked and did not last very long. Liston ducked no one and was still kicking ass when he was 42-43 years old, 17 years into his pro career. And don't read me his age off boxrec and tell me that he was 38 when he beat Wepner, I'm perfectly aware of their inaccurate information.

[MeccaOfBoxing]

Liston wasn't just better, he accomplished more...It's not remotely close.

Giving Frazier every benefit of every doubt, he beat 12 quality fighters in his career. Liston beat more than twice that amount. The numbers just don't add up. Frazier cherry picked and did not last very long. Liston ducked no one and was still kicking ass when he was 42-43 years old, 17 years into his pro career. And don't read me his age off boxrec and tell me that he was 38 when he beat Wepner, I'm perfectly aware of their inaccurate information.

Explain man. I don't see it. Frazier beat the better fighters and had the better title reign.

[SBleeder]

And don't read me his age off boxrec and tell me that he was 38 when he beat Wepner, I'm perfectly aware of their inaccurate information.

Well, to be fair, no one really knows how old Liston was.

[Obama]

Explain man. I don't see it. Frazier beat the better fighters and had the better title reign.

Nothing to explain. Either you understand Liston's opposition was better or you don't. I can give you the lists, but I'm not about to sit here and convince you of them.

Joe Frazier

Notable Wins:
Oscar Bonavena (x2)
Eddie Machen [Over the hill]
Doug Jones *Light Heavyweight
George Chuvalo
Buster Mathis [Undefeated]
Manuel Ramos
Jerry Quarry (x2)
Jimmy Ellis (x2) [Prime in 1st] [Over the hill in 2nd]
Bob Foster *Light Heavyweight [Never proven at HW but prime top 10 ATG LHW]
Muhammad Ali [Undefeated] [Post-Prime]
Ron Stander
Joe Bugner
Notable Losses:
George Foreman (x2) [TKO 2] [TKO 5] *1st loss prime, 2nd loss over the hill
Muhammad Ali (x2) [UD 12] [RTD 14] *post-prime in both defeats
Questionable Wins:
Oscar Bonavena I


Sonny Liston

Notable Wins:
Johnny Summerlin (x2)
Marty Marshall (x2) [1st fight prime] [2nd fight Marshall given 4 days notice] *Light Heavyweight
Johnny Gray [Pre-Prime]
Billy Hunter
Ben Wise
Bert Whitehurst (x2)
Julio Mederos
Wayne Bethea
Frankie Daniels *Light Heavyweight
Mike DeJohn
Cleveland Williams (x2)
Nino Valdes [Post-Prime]
Willi Besmanoff
Howard King (x2)
Roy Harris
Zora Folley
Eddie Machen
Albert Westphal
Floyd Patterson (x2)
Gerhard Zech
Amos Johnson
Elmer Rush
Henry Clark
Roger Rischer [Post-Prime]
Amos Lincoln
Billy Joiner
Chuck Wepner
Notable Losses:
Muhammad Ali (x2) [RTD 7] [KO 1] {Liston Post-Prime}
Questionable Losses:
Muhammad Ali (x2)[Liston may have thrown both fights]

[StarshipTrooper]

Nothing to explain. Either you understand Liston's opposition was better or you don't. I can give you the lists, but I'm not about to sit here and convince you of them.

Joe Frazier

Notable Wins:
Oscar Bonavena (x2)
Eddie Machen [Over the hill]
Doug Jones *Light Heavyweight
George Chuvalo
Buster Mathis [Undefeated]
Manuel Ramos
Jerry Quarry (x2)
Jimmy Ellis (x2) [Prime in 1st] [Over the hill in 2nd]
Bob Foster *Light Heavyweight [Never proven at HW but prime top 10 ATG LHW]
Muhammad Ali [Undefeated] [Post-Prime]
Ron Stander
Joe Bugner
Notable Losses:
George Foreman (x2) [TKO 2] [TKO 5] *1st loss prime, 2nd loss over the hill
Muhammad Ali (x2) [UD 12] [RTD 14] *post-prime in both defeats
Questionable Wins:
Oscar Bonavena I


Sonny Liston

Notable Wins:
Johnny Summerlin (x2)
Marty Marshall (x2) [1st fight prime] [2nd fight Marshall given 4 days notice] *Light Heavyweight
Johnny Gray [Pre-Prime]
Billy Hunter
Ben Wise
Bert Whitehurst (x2)
Julio Mederos
Wayne Bethea
Frankie Daniels *Light Heavyweight
Mike DeJohn
Cleveland Williams (x2)
Nino Valdes [Post-Prime]
Willi Besmanoff
Howard King (x2)
Roy Harris
Zora Folley
Eddie Machen
Albert Westphal
Floyd Patterson (x2)
Gerhard Zech
Amos Johnson
Elmer Rush
Henry Clark
Roger Rischer [Post-Prime]
Amos Lincoln
Billy Joiner
Chuck Wepner
Notable Losses:
Muhammad Ali (x2) [RTD 7] [KO 1] {Liston Post-Prime}
Questionable Losses:
Muhammad Ali (x2)[Liston may have thrown both fights]

Well, to be fair I believe he's going more by achievments than resume in which case I can understand his rankings even if I don't rank fighters in that manner myself. Frazier DID actually have something of a title reign and got a win over Ali while Liston didn't. Still, that's not how I'd personally rank fighters and I'm certain if Liston and Frazier "played the same schedual" that Liston would have the better won-loss score at the end.

Poet

[Obama]

Liston not being given a title shot when he deserved it cannot be held against him. All it matters is who you beat, not what piece of ***elry you were wearing when you beat them.