My Top Ten Greatest Heavyweight Champs Of All Time!

[RockyMarcianofan00]

punching power: foreman yes. shavers, eh, yes. marciano hell, friggin no! tyson, no!

liston has the longer reach. 84 compared to 81 1/2 of foreman.

liston has quicker hands and better boxing skills. liston would just pick him apart and embarass him with his superior boxing skills and then ko him late.

Marciano definitely had more power then Liston because of all the leverage he put behind his punches, you can't even argue that,just because Liston gave young clay a run for his money doesn't mean it elavates him from a good fighter to a great fighter

everybody i listed there's a harder hitter then liston (maybe tyson maybe not i'm not sure)

I see liston going to throw punches and Foreman just battering him

[butterfly1964]

Marciano definitely had more power then Liston because of all the leverage he put behind his punches, you can't even argue that,just because Liston gave young clay a run for his money doesn't mean it elavates him from a good fighter to a great fighter

everybody i listed there's a harder hitter then liston (maybe tyson maybe not i'm not sure)

I see liston going to throw punches and Foreman just battering him

it took 9 rounds of punching and 5 knockdowns for marciano to ko moore, but yet it took one round and one combo for liston to ko patterson. and patterson has a better chin than moore.

why would you say liston couldn't hit foreman. it could actually be the other way around.

[Yogi]

good one yogi, but rarely does one get in an argument with butterfly1964 and win, so i guess i'll have to shut you down here.

ali wasn't in his prime for cooper, he was smaller, weaker, and inexperienced.

mildenberger is a southpaw, norton is not. plus that body shot from mildenberger in the tenth round is overrated. i watched it, and from what i see, about 5sec later ali looked fine and was on the offensive and guess what? in that same round where mildenberger "rocked" ali to the body, ali hit karl with a wicked right hand that dropped "miltenberger"( ) to the canvas so hard that karl rolled over, lol!!!

also did ali train hard for the chuvalo fight either? certainly not. he weighed the most he ever weighed for a fight up to that point 214 1/2lb. the heaviest he ever weighed before that was 210 1/2 against liston in '64. so ali wasn't that prepared either. and plus the chuvalo fight was one of the most lopsided fights i have ever witnessed, so i don't see how chuvalo did anything really that competitive to give himself a chance to win that fight.

also, when ali danced on norton, ken couldn't really do any thing, so prime ali would dance mostly the whole fight, and norton would definetely lose.

Oh please, you know damn well that you haven't won an argument on this forum since you first arrived here, so you certainly ain't winning this one...especially when it should've been very obvious by my "Buddy Baer > Muhammad Ali" comment that I was mostly just ****ing around with you and your silly ranking criteria.

I was speaking of the rematch with Cooper in '66 (Ali's prime), which showed that Ali could be hit with a jab by a fighter who was not the caliber, nor had the reach of Norton.

I'll watch the Mildenberger fight again tomorrow for your benifit, but certainly somebody of the German's mediocre hitting power should've have been noticably hurting Ali at all with any of his shots.

Whether Ali trained hard or not for the first Chuvalo fight, he was certainly the one who was much more prepared for that fight out of the two fighters as far as gym time went...Yeah, it was a one-sided fight (from memory I had it 13-2 for Ali, giving Chuvalo the 2nd & 6th rounds, I believe it was), but the very unprepared Chuvalo still hung tough all throughout & had some good moments throughout the fight when he was able to trap Ali in the corner or along the ropes, and hit him with the right hands uptop & especially the left hooks down low. Stamina appeared to be a factor in the mid/late goings, as Chuvalo looked much, much more tired than he did versus say Patterson (which was fought at a brisker pace that the Ali fight, and Chuvalo was the stronger fighter late). Had he had more time to prepare I think Chuvalo would've been somewhat competitive with Ali, like he was in their rematch when the older version of himself actually won more rounds in a twelve round fight than he did in the fifteen rounder...One-sided or not, Ali has always admitted that the first Chuvalo fight was one of the toughest of his career.

And besides the first couple rounds of their rematch, when did Ali have so much success when he "danced" against Norton?

It certainly didn't work for Ali in the first fight, as when in that mode he was missing with basically all of his jabs (or getting them blocked) before Norton would cut the ring off, close the distance and work Ali's body over along the ropes...Norton's sneaky right hand lead was instrumental in slowing down Ali when in that mode, and it almost seemed that Kenny couldn't miss with that punch (besides the jab, which he also rarely missed with, that was probably Norton's second most effective weapon in their first fight).

In their rematch, Ali did get off to a good start by using his legs, but once again he seemed to be missing with most of his flicks of the left hand. And while that style did slow Norton's attack in the opening rounds, it wasn't before too long when Norton was again having sucess landing the jab, sneaky lead rights, and his body work was very effective for the last three-quarters of that rematch.

i.e. Unlike your blind self, I don't see especially effective work from Ali when in his dancing mode, as he missed with the large majority of his jabs and Norton seemed to have the answers to it & succeeded in bringing Ali down off his toes (1st fight: jab & sneaky lead right hand...2nd fight: jab & excellant bodywork).

[butterfly1964]

Oh please, you know damn well that you haven't won an argument on this forum since you first arrived here, so you certainly ain't winning this one...especially when it should've been very obvious by my "Buddy Baer > Muhammad Ali" comment that I was mostly just ****ing around with you and your silly ranking criteria.

I was speaking of the rematch with Cooper in '66 (Ali's prime), which showed that Ali could be hit with a jab by a fighter who was not the caliber, nor had the reach of Norton.

I'll watch the Mildenberger fight again tomorrow for your benifit, but certainly somebody of the German's mediocre hitting power should've have been noticably hurting Ali at all with any of his shots.

Whether Ali trained hard or not for the first Chuvalo fight, he was certainly the one who was much more prepared for that fight out of the two fighters as far as gym time went...Yeah, it was a one-sided fight (from memory I had it 13-2 for Ali, giving Chuvalo the 2nd & 6th rounds, I believe it was), but the very unprepared Chuvalo still hung tough all throughout & had some good moments throughout the fight when he was able to trap Ali in the corner or along the ropes, and hit him with the right hands uptop & especially the left hooks down low. Stamina appeared to be a factor in the mid/late goings, as Chuvalo looked much, much more tired than he did versus say Patterson (which was fought at a brisker pace that the Ali fight, and Chuvalo was the stronger fighter late). Had he had more time to prepare I think Chuvalo would've been somewhat competitive with Ali, like he was in their rematch when the older version of himself actually won more rounds in a twelve round fight than he did in the fifteen rounder...One-sided or not, Ali has always admitted that the first Chuvalo fight was one of the toughest of his career.

And besides the first couple rounds of their rematch, when did Ali have so much success when he "danced" against Norton?

It certainly didn't work for Ali in the first fight, as when in that mode he was missing with basically all of his jabs (or getting them blocked) before Norton would cut the ring off, close the distance and work Ali's body over along the ropes...Norton's sneaky right hand lead was instrumental in slowing down Ali when in that mode, and it almost seemed that Kenny couldn't miss with that punch (besides the jab, which he also rarely missed with, that was probably Norton's second most effective weapon in their first fight).

In their rematch, Ali did get off to a good start by using his legs, but once again he seemed to be missing with most of his flicks of the left hand. And while that style did slow Norton's attack in the opening rounds, it wasn't before too long when Norton was again having sucess landing the jab, sneaky lead rights, and his body work was very effective for the last three-quarters of that rematch.

i.e. Unlike your blind self, I don't see especially effective work from Ali when in his dancing mode, as he missed with the large majority of his jabs and Norton seemed to have the answers to it & succeeded in bringing Ali down off his toes (1st fight: jab & sneaky lead right hand...2nd fight: jab & excellant bodywork).

yeah, ali missed his jabs cause he wasn't prime, he was like 31 and had a near four year layoff. 25 yr. old ali wouldn't be missing jabs.

[Yogi]

yeah, ali missed his jabs cause he wasn't prime, he was like 31 and had a near four year layoff. 25 yr. old ali wouldn't be missing jabs.

Yeah, of course...because we both know that the slow moving, literally & figuratively shot human punching bag by the name of Cleveland Williams is a most accurate representative of what Norton was capable of doing at his best.

[smasher]

I think Chuvalo would've been somewhat competitive with Ali, like he was in their rematch when the older version of himself actually won more rounds in a twelve round fight than he did in the fifteen rounder...

In the first fight Chuvalo won 2 rounds, 1 round, and 1 round on the judges score cards

In the rematch Chuvalo won 1 round, no rounds, and 2 round on the judges score cards...

[SuzieQ49]

In the first fight Chuvalo won 2 rounds, 1 round, and 1 round on the judges score cards

In the rematch Chuvalo won 1 round, no rounds, and 2 round on the judges score cards...

well judges are often wrong as you should know

[Yogi]

Yeah, I'd much rather trust my own personal judgement over that of the ringside officials, and when I watched the Ali/Chuvalo rematch I thought Chuvalo won at least three of those rounds during the fight...I gave him a couple of rounds somewhere between the 3rd and 5th (or 2nd and 5th), and I also thought George won one of the very late rounds (might've even been the last round). I also thought there was one very clear Chuvalo round in about the 4th or 5th, when he cornered Ali and did some really good work to the body, so I'd really question the judge who couldn't even find one single round in Chuvalo's favour.

Ali took control of the fight from about the 6th or 7th round (there was a big round for him out of those two, when he rocked Chuvalo and really let his hands go) 'til the very late goings, but overall I thought Chuvalo performed better and also landed more shots on Ali than he did in their first fight.

Smasher, you've seen the fight...Did you score it, or even get the same impression that Chuvalo performed better when making a comparision between the two Ali/Chuvalo fights?

[smasher]

Yeah, I'd much rather trust my own personal judgement over that of the ringside officials, and when I watched the Ali/Chuvalo rematch I thought Chuvalo won at least three of those rounds during the fight...I gave him a couple of rounds somewhere between the 3rd and 5th (or 2nd and 5th), and I also thought George won one of the very late rounds (might've even been the last round). I also thought there was one very clear Chuvalo round in about the 4th or 5th, when he cornered Ali and did some really good work to the body, so I'd really question the judge who couldn't even find one single round in Chuvalo's favour.

Ali took control of the fight from about the 6th or 7th round (there was a big round for him out of those two, when he rocked Chuvalo and really let his hands go) 'til the very late goings, but overall I thought Chuvalo performed better and also landed more shots on Ali than he did in their first fight.

Smasher, you've seen the fight...Did you score it, or even get the same impression that Chuvalo performed better when making a comparision between the two Ali/Chuvalo fights?

Both guys fought differently. Ali was more flat-footed in the first fight and clearly wanted to be the first guy to KO Chuvalo. In the rematch Ali used more movement and seemed less intent on scoring a KO.

In the first fight Chuvalo focused mostly on the body and didn't land much to Ali's head. In the re-match Chuvalo used his jab a bit more, scored a bit more to the head but landed less body shots. All in all I would say George probably did a little better the second time around but not by a whole lot.

The first fight was in my backyard while the second was in yours!

[KingTito]

1) Muhammad Ali
2) Joe Louis
3) Mike Tyson
4) Larry Holmes
5) Rocky Marciano
6) Jack Johnson
7) Joe Frazier
8) Lennox Lewis
9) George Foreman
10) Evander Holyfield