The overrated Roberto Duran

[steeluv]

Lol at the Idiot comparing a heavyweight to Duran, everyone knows due to less need for speed and work rate in that division, u can go on longer, Where is the lightweights to compare this too or even Welters??? Larry Holmes did not win titles in any other division, there is people like Foreman, Ali in the heavyweight division to compare to Holmes, U need to listen to your BS comparisons, We are NOT TALKING OLD HEAVYWEIGHTS, We are talking About a Guy who WENT FROM LIGHT TO MIDDLE and won MIDDLEWEIGHT TITLE AT 38 in THE RING ****ZINE FIGHT OF THE YEAR??

[TheGreatA]

Ortiz beat four lineal champions at lightweight, while Duran beat two. Ortiz also beat four HOFers, while Duran only beat one.

The level of fighters that Ortiz beat were simply much better Duran's.

Ortiz beat two lineal lightweight champions as far as I know, the ones I already listed (Laguna & Brown).

You have to consider at what point in their careers those hall of famers were. Surely Laguna was at his peak and that's Ortiz's best win, he overcame him in a three fight series. But Joe Brown was getting old and after being beaten by Ortiz was never a good fighter again. Buchanan beat an old Ortiz but I wouldn't give him much credit for that.

Sugar Ramos was a former featherweight champion who was showing signs of slipping. Saldivar had beaten him viciously but Ramos actually put Ortiz down for a long count in a controversial fight. Was Ramos truly a great lightweight? He went onto lose to Mando Ramos, who was a good fighter and a title holder, but not superior to the opposition Duran fought at 135. I'm not too sure if he could have competed with the best lightweights Duran defended his title against.

Flash Elorde was a hall of famer but mostly for what he accomplished at 130. It was a very good win however.

Also I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the likes of Esteban DeJesus & Ernesto Marcel make the hall of fame in the future.

He did brawl with him. Obviously he had an option of whether he wanted to go toe to toe or not. The one quote you gave from his trainer doesn't mean anything. Leonard did what he wanted in the second fight and look what happened. He made a complete mockery of Duran.

Again you're taking away credit for Duran's victory as if it counts for nothing. Duran was able to force Leonard to fight his fight the first while Leonard made Duran fight his fight the second time. But who had all the advantages in height, reach and youth? Leonard did. Do you see any featherweight coming up in weight to beat Duran? I don't. Duran went up to Leonard's division and beat him once.

Do you favour the likes of Whitaker and Mayweather over Leonard? Duran still does hold that win over Leonard which proves he can beat him. He beat Ray Leonard, one of the greatest and fastest boxers that ever lived. It's a huge victory which should not be cast aside as some sort of "fluke".

You think the boxers you named are as fast as Leonard? Wow.

Not necessarily as fast but they were fast and they were lightweights. Ray Leonard was one of the fastest fighters who ever lived. You said Duran wasn't able to outbox fast boxers. Take a look at Ernesto Marcel, slippery as an eel and a right hand lead comparable to Mayweather's. Duran beat him.

Duran was a bully. Anyone who thinks he wasn't doesn't know what they're talking about.

How was he a bully? Do bullies have brutal 12 round fights against the likes of Iran Barkley and take massive punishment yet overcoming a huge size advantage to win? You're trying to define Duran's career on one fight out of 120 fights. Yes, he quit once, but so did many others.

You bring up Pep? Haha. He had an injury, unlike Duran who chose to make up multiple excuses. Duran was out-boxed to the point of embarrassment and that's that.

Pep had a cut on his eye in a fight he was clearly winning and retired on his stool. Not to mention the alleged dives he took and when he retired on his stool against Tommy Collins. How about the rest? No comment on Joe Gans who you rate over Duran?

You said Duran was young and didn't have enough experience, yet he beat Buchanan. Then when he loses, you said that's because he didn't have the right style. It's clear you're making excuses and it's quite sad.

You don't get what I'm saying here. I said Duran did not have enough experience to deal with DeJesus' style. Buchanan was completely different from DeJesus. Duran obviously went onto prove that with added experience he was able to handle DeJesus, so what is it exactly that you're trying to say here?

There we go with the personal attacks, again.

It's not a personal attack. It's an observation. A lot of what you're saying can be said by anybody. You can discredit any fighter the way you're doing.

Just because my opinions are different from yours and I'm getting the better of you in this debate, you claim that I haven't watched any fights. You just use that as another excuse to cover up everything I've proven wrong about your little theories. You're clearly biased.

You're only getting the better of this debate in your opinion. You have refused to discuss the actual fights and only point out to the outcomes.

Duran isn't Corrales. He also isn't Castillo. To use Castillo as an example of why Duran would be able to beat Mayweather is ******.

Nice job, there.. NOT.

How so? Do you not see any comparisons between Duran and Castillo? I'll have to disagree with you there. Duran would bring an equal amount of pressure as Castillo but he was a better and more clever fighter.

That's your opinion, but I don't agree with it.

Try to even state why you don't agree with it and I'll cease to accuse you of not knowing what you're talking about.

You can't compare Whitaker and Mayweather to Leonard because they're nothing alike. Whitaker and Mayweather were much better defensively than Leonard. Do you honestly think Whitaker and Mayweather would stand there and exchange punches with Duran. No. It would be similar to Leonard vs Duran II. They would out-box him by counter-punching (which they were amazing at) and constantly moving. They're defense would've been too much.

Whitaker did stand and trade many times although he was adept at making people miss while doing so. I do not think either of them have the blend of speed and power that Leonard brought, not to mention they aren't as big as Leonard who was a natural welteweight several inches taller and reachier than Duran, Whitaker, Mayweather.

What's going to prevent Duran from walking in like Castillo did against Mayweather? I'm almost certain that had it been Duran in there instead of Castillo, not to mention had the fight been scheduled for 15 rounds, Mayweather would have left the fight with a loss on his record. Duran brings fast, relentless yet intelligent pressure.

Believe what you want but it doesn't matter.

I do remember that it was towards the end of one of the rounds, though.

It doesn't matter? You're trying to discredit Duran's win over Davey Moore but you're not willing to point out why?

Well then, may we disregard Mayweather's victory over Hatton because he was using his elbows? I actually have the proof right here:



Here's some real lacing by Larry Holmes:



Evander Holyfield's career should be erased from the record books:



An exhibition on holding and hitting by Lennox Lewis:



I can go on.

Why do you constantly try to bring up separate debates? I'm not comparing the accomplishments of Hagler and Cotto.

You compared Pacquiao fighting Cotto to Duran fighting Hagler, so yes, you are comparing Hagler and Cotto.

I'm comparing the fact that Duran lost to the best fighter of the decade at the highest division where he won a title at.

Pacquiao, however, didn't lose to the best fighter of the decade at the highest division he won a title at.

But fighting Hagler and fighting Cotto is not comparable.

The overrated Castro was a lucky, overweight paper champion. Castro also beat Duran in their first fight, only to lose the second fight by a close decision. Did Holmes ever lose to either Smith or Weaver? Didn't think so.

Are you still trying to claim that beating old, out of shape men like Weaver and Smith is in any way comparable to Duran's efforts against Castro? It speaks for itself.

Castro was hardly a good fighter. Have you actually seen him fight? He's below average of any kind of championship material.

I've seen his fights at light middleweight, middleweight and cruiserweight. He was as tough as they come and very strong physically.

[HaglerSteelChin]

With all due respect to Carlos Monzon, I wouldn't rate his reign at 160 any higher than I do Duran's at 135 and we know that Duran went up to the welterweight and middleweight divisions also while Monzon never tried to test waters at light heavyweight or heavyweight even though there were possibilities.

Wins over Napoles and Griffith were great but both men were giving away a lot of age/height/reach to Monzon.

There was no SMW division at the time. It came years later where guys moved up from 160 t0 168. I study the fighting styles and think Monzon and Salvador Sanchez can adapt to more different styles than Duran. DUran is a great fighter but i don't think he is better than Monzon. Monzon had the recored of 14 title defenses when there was one real lineal champ. His greatest wins are not against Napoles and Griffith, i rate his wins over Benenvenuti and Rodrigo Valdez as his best wins. He beat Benenvenuti in Italy in front of his own fans by KO and than did it again to put the exclamation point. He beat Valdez when monzon was pass his prime and beat him twice. This dosen't even include fighters like Licata who was like 50-1 or Mundine a tenacious austrailain fighter who Monzon KO'd. Even as champ, he went to france to beat prime french challenger Bouttier by knocking him down 3 times to avoid the judges giving Bouttier a hometown gift decision.

Duran moved up in weight and eventually beat SRL. But when SRL found how to beat him he couldnt adjust. Monzon over his 80 consecutive wins beat counterpunchers, brawlers, Stylists etc. He went almost 13 years without a loss. Duran beat Davey Moore at 154 for the WBA; but if he fought the true 154 champ Thomas Hearns he wouldnt have won at 154. He also lost to Benitez at 154 so his win was against a guy who had 12 professional fights. I give him credit for Barkely, but it was a SD and many had it the other way.

I have no doubt with the alphabet soup of belts that Monzon would have picked up a title at 168 if the SMW division existed at the time. If he wanted to jump to 175 LHW than his opponent would be John Conteh an english fighter who Muhammad beat twice in the mid 1970's. Monzon would have beat Conteh who was no **** Tiger. Tiger's reign at LHW was around the time when Monzon was still defending his MW crown and it would be more likely that Monzon would move up later in his career.

I hate Carlos Monzon the person; he beat up women, photographers, and killed a woman. But the man stepped in the ring 100 times and his losses were 3; and those were early in his career.

[TheGreatA]

There was no SMW division at the time. It came years later where guys moved up from 160 t0 168. I study the fighting styles and think Monzon and Salvador Sanchez can adapt to more different styles than Duran. DUran is a great fighter but i don't think he is better than Monzon. Monzon had the recored of 14 title defenses when there was one real lineal champ. His greatest wins are not against Napoles and Griffith, i rate his wins over Benenvenuti and Rodrigo Valdez as his best wins. He beat Benenvenuti in Italy in front of his own fans by KO and than did it again to put the exclamation point. He beat Valdez when monzon was pass his prime and beat him twice. This dosen't even include fighters like Licata who was like 50-1 or Mundine a tenacious austrailain fighter who Monzon KO'd. Even as champ, he went to france to beat prime french challenger Bouttier by knocking him down 3 times to avoid the judges giving Bouttier a hometown gift decision.

Duran moved up in weight and eventually beat SRL. But when SRL found how to beat him he couldnt adjust. Monzon over his 80 consecutive wins beat counterpunchers, brawlers, Stylists etc. He went almost 13 years without a loss. Duran beat Davey Moore at 154 for the WBA; but if he fought the true 154 champ Thomas Hearns he wouldnt have won at 154. He also lost to Benitez at 154 so his win was against a guy who had 12 professional fights. I give him credit for Barkely, but it was a SD and many had it the other way.

How do you think Monzon would have done against a bigger, stronger and reachier fighter than he was? All of his opponents were smaller. I can't see Monzon going up to the light heavyweight division and being successful for example against Bob Foster. Would Duran ever have lost again had he stayed in the lightweight division? I tend to doubt it. But he went after bigger challenges. Monzon relied on his height and reach advantages a lot. Duran proved he could beat bigger men over and over.

Rodrigo Valdez was very good but I'm not sure if I'd rate him any higher than Esteban DeJesus at LW for example. Benvenuti was also very good but he was past his true prime and better off at 154 in my opinion.

Many of Monzon's European opponents were good but I wouldn't say any better than most of Duran's LW defenses who are a very overlooked and underrated bunch.

I have no doubt with the alphabet soup of belts that Monzon would have picked up a title at 168 if the SMW division existed at the time. If he wanted to jump to 175 LHW than his opponent would be John Conteh an english fighter who Muhammad beat twice in the mid 1970's. Monzon would have beat Conteh who was no **** Tiger. Tiger's reign at LHW was around the time when Monzon was still defending his MW crown and it would be more likely that Monzon would move up later in his career.

Conteh was champ late in Monzon's career and I actually doubt that Monzon would have beaten Conteh. Conteh was greatly talented until his hand injuries. May have been too much for an older Monzon to handle.

Yes there was no super middleweight division but don't forget that Duran too skipped the light welterweight division altogether, went straight at welterweight and then junior middleweight & middleweight. Monzon never fought at light heavyweight even though there were potential match-ups against Bob Foster and John Conteh.

[DeepSleep]

Where is Duran lacing Davey Moore?

Duran should have been DQ'd in this fight, he thumbed Moore badly mulitple times and hit low throughout the fight along with (lace)raking his face badly at the end of the seventh round.



3:02 - 3:06.

[Joey Giardello]

How do you think Monzon would have done against a bigger, stronger and reachier fighter than he was? All of his opponents were smaller. I can't see Monzon going up to the light heavyweight division and being successful for example against Bob Foster. Would Duran ever have lost again had he stayed in the lightweight division? I tend to doubt it. But he went after bigger challenges. Monzon relied on his height and reach advantages a lot. Duran proved he could beat bigger men over and over.

Rodrigo Valdez was very good but I'm not sure if I'd rate him any higher than Esteban DeJesus at LW for example. Benvenuti was also very good but he was past his true prime and better off at 154 in my opinion.

Many of Monzon's European opponents were good but I wouldn't say any better than most of Duran's LW defenses who are a very overlooked and underrated bunch.



Conteh was champ late in Monzon's career and I actually doubt that Monzon would have beaten Conteh. Conteh was greatly talented until his hand injuries. May have been too much for an older Monzon to handle.

Yes there was no super middleweight division but don't forget that Duran too skipped the light welterweight division altogether, went straight at welterweight and then junior middleweight & middleweight. Monzon never fought at light heavyweight even though there were potential match-ups against Bob Foster and John Conteh.

Monzon and conteh were in talks to fight, john wanted the fight more than monzon, would of been conteh's biggest pay day, it even made the front of the boxing news that the fight was in talks and close to happening. Would be cool if you coud get that cover of the boxing news up Great A, with both coneh and monzon on it

[TheGreatA]

Duran should have been DQ'd in this fight, he thumbed Moore badly mulitple times and hit low throughout the fight along with (lace)raking his face badly at the end of the seventh round.



3:02 - 3:06.

Seemed more like he was pushing Moore off of him, and Moore was a beaten man at that point. The fight should have been stopped. I don't see anything DQ-worthy in that sequence.

Moore certainly landed his share of low blows as well.

[Owlzfan84]

Ortiz beat two lineal lightweight champions as far as I know, the ones I already listed (Laguna & Brown).

You have to consider at what point in their careers those hall of famers were. Surely Laguna was at his peak and that's Ortiz's best win, he overcame him in a three fight series. But Joe Brown was getting old and after being beaten by Ortiz was never a good fighter again. Buchanan beat an old Ortiz but I wouldn't give him much credit for that.

Sugar Ramos was a former featherweight champion who was showing signs of slipping. Saldivar had beaten him viciously but Ramos actually put Ortiz down for a long count in a controversial fight. Was Ramos truly a great lightweight? He went onto lose to Mando Ramos, who was a good fighter and a title holder, but not superior to the opposition Duran fought at 135. I'm not too sure if he could have competed with the best lightweights Duran defended his title against.

Flash Elorde was a hall of famer but mostly for what he accomplished at 130. It was a very good win however.

Also I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the likes of Esteban DeJesus & Ernesto Marcel make the hall of fame in the future.



Again you're taking away credit for Duran's victory as if it counts for nothing. Duran was able to force Leonard to fight his fight the first while Leonard made Duran fight his fight the second time. But who had all the advantages in height, reach and youth? Leonard did. Do you see any featherweight coming up in weight to beat Duran? I don't. Duran went up to Leonard's division and beat him once.

Do you favour the likes of Whitaker and Mayweather over Leonard? Duran still does hold that win over Leonard which proves he can beat him. He beat Ray Leonard, one of the greatest and fastest boxers that ever lived. It's a huge victory which should not be cast aside as some sort of "fluke".



Not necessarily as fast but they were fast and they were lightweights. Ray Leonard was one of the fastest fighters who ever lived. You said Duran wasn't able to outbox fast boxers. Take a look at Ernesto Marcel, slippery as an eel and a right hand lead comparable to Mayweather's. Duran beat him.




How was he a bully? Do bullies have brutal 12 round fights against the likes of Iran Barkley and take massive punishment yet overcoming a huge size advantage to win? You're trying to define Duran's career on one fight out of 120 fights. Yes, he quit once, but so did many others.



Pep had a cut on his eye in a fight he was clearly winning and retired on his stool. Not to mention the alleged dives he took and when he retired on his stool against Tommy Collins. How about the rest? No comment on Joe Gans who you rate over Duran?



You don't get what I'm saying here. I said Duran did not have enough experience to deal with DeJesus' style. Buchanan was completely different from DeJesus. Duran obviously went onto prove that with added experience he was able to handle DeJesus, so what is it exactly that you're trying to say here?



It's not a personal attack. It's an observation. A lot of what you're saying can be said by anybody. You can discredit any fighter the way you're doing.



You're only getting the better of this debate in your opinion. You have refused to discuss the actual fights and only point out to the outcomes.



How so? Do you not see any comparisons between Duran and Castillo? I'll have to disagree with you there. Duran would bring an equal amount of pressure as Castillo but he was a better and more clever fighter.



Try to even state why you don't agree with it and I'll cease to accuse you of not knowing what you're talking about.



Whitaker did stand and trade many times although he was adept at making people miss while doing so. I do not think either of them have the blend of speed and power that Leonard brought, not to mention they aren't as big as Leonard who was a natural welteweight several inches taller and reachier than Duran, Whitaker, Mayweather.

What's going to prevent Duran from walking in like Castillo did against Mayweather? I'm almost certain that had it been Duran in there instead of Castillo, not to mention had the fight been scheduled for 15 rounds, Mayweather would have left the fight with a loss on his record. Duran brings fast, relentless yet intelligent pressure.



It doesn't matter? You're trying to discredit Duran's win over Davey Moore but you're not willing to point out why?

Well then, may we disregard Mayweather's victory over Hatton because he was using his elbows? I actually have the proof right here:



Here's some real lacing by Larry Holmes:



Evander Holyfield's career should be erased from the record books:



An exhibition on holding and hitting by Lennox Lewis:



I can go on.



You compared Pacquiao fighting Cotto to Duran fighting Hagler, so yes, you are comparing Hagler and Cotto.



But fighting Hagler and fighting Cotto is not comparable.



Are you still trying to claim that beating old, out of shape men like Weaver and Smith is in any way comparable to Duran's efforts against Castro? It speaks for itself.



I've seen his fights at light middleweight, middleweight and cruiserweight. He was as tough as they come and very strong physically.

you can also add Lennox lewis thumb causing the cut over Vitali's eye.

Honestly dude, if this were an actual debate you prob would of won. But Nothing you can say will change the thread starters mind. the mere fact that he refuses to give full credit for Duran beating a PRIME Sugar Ray leonard in Leonards best weight class is evidence enough his mind is made up and he'll never give Duran full credit for certain wins and his accomplishments.

and another note, just because Duran moved forward in his fights doesn't automatically make him a brawler. What i liked about Duran was he could move forward and still be slick with head feints and blocking punches with his arms. There's different styles of boxing and saying one style is real boxing as opposed to another is just one sided thinking.

I personally have Duran in my top 10 pfp...but it is opinion and boxing is the hardest sport to gauge and measure the fighters because of the weight classes. I could see someone having Duran in the top 10, or top 25.

[Method Checker]

Ortiz beat two lineal lightweight champions as far as I know, the ones I already listed (Laguna & Brown).

You have to consider at what point in their careers those hall of famers were. Surely Laguna was at his peak and that's Ortiz's best win, he overcame him in a three fight series. But Joe Brown was getting old and after being beaten by Ortiz was never a good fighter again. Buchanan beat an old Ortiz but I wouldn't give him much credit for that.

Sugar Ramos was a former featherweight champion who was showing signs of slipping. Saldivar had beaten him viciously but Ramos actually put Ortiz down for a long count in a controversial fight. Was Ramos truly a great lightweight? He went onto lose to Mando Ramos, who was a good fighter and a title holder, but not superior to the opposition Duran fought at 135. I'm not too sure if he could have competed with the best lightweights Duran defended his title against.

Flash Elorde was a hall of famer but mostly for what he accomplished at 130. It was a very good win however.

Also I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the likes of Esteban DeJesus & Ernesto Marcel make the hall of fame in the future.

You make excuses and then you make more excuses. I can do the same to Duran's victories, if I wanted to.

Show me once, in this thread, where I discredited Duran's win over Buchanan. Show me where I discredited Duran's two wins over De Jesus.

Again you're taking away credit for Duran's victory as if it counts for nothing. Duran was able to force Leonard to fight his fight the first while Leonard made Duran fight his fight the second time. But who had all the advantages in height, reach and youth? Leonard did. Do you see any featherweight coming up in weight to beat Duran? I don't. Duran went up to Leonard's division and beat him once.

I didn't take anything away from his victory. Leonard brawled one fight and boxed the other. Leonard lost the brawl. I keep repeating that over and over but you somehow find the need to keep bringing it up. He lost, then won.

Do you favour the likes of Whitaker and Mayweather over Leonard? Duran still does hold that win over Leonard which proves he can beat him. He beat Ray Leonard, one of the greatest and fastest boxers that ever lived. It's a huge victory which should not be cast aside as some sort of "fluke".

I would give Leonard the full advantage over Mayweather. However, I think he would've had some trouble with Whitaker and that fight could go either way.

How was he a bully? Do bullies have brutal 12 round fights against the likes of Iran Barkley and take massive punishment yet overcoming a huge size advantage to win? You're trying to define Duran's career on one fight out of 120 fights. Yes, he quit once, but so did many others.

I didn't say he was a bully throughout his whole career. You're falsely claiming I did. The only time I said he was a bully, in this thread, was during the Leonard fights. Show me where I said elsewhere.

Pep had a cut on his eye in a fight he was clearly winning and retired on his stool. Not to mention the alleged dives he took and when he retired on his stool against Tommy Collins. How about the rest? No comment on Joe Gans who you rate over Duran?

Of course, they deserve to be bashed over what they did, but the quitting part doesn't take away anything extra from their losses. The quitting part just casts a shadow over their profiles.

Not once in this thread did I say that Duran's quitting should take anything away from his legacy. I just stated the fact that he lost by quitting. It doesn't matter whether he quit, got knocked out or lost a decision. He just lost and that's how I rate it.

You don't get what I'm saying here. I said Duran did not have enough experience to deal with DeJesus' style. Buchanan was completely different from DeJesus. Duran obviously went onto prove that with added experience he was able to handle DeJesus, so what is it exactly that you're trying to say here?

It's quite clear that you're very fond of Duran. I just find it disgraceful that you have to make an excuse to cover up a loss in his prime.

It's not a personal attack. It's an observation. A lot of what you're saying can be said by anybody. You can discredit any fighter the way you're doing.

Funny, but you've done that a lot more than I have.

You're only getting the better of this debate in your opinion. You have refused to discuss the actual fights and only point out to the outcomes.

So you think you're winning, now, do you? Tell me, did you convince me that Duran is overrated? No, you haven't. I, on the other hand, have given you more reasons why I consider him overrated.

How so? Do you not see any comparisons between Duran and Castillo? I'll have to disagree with you there. Duran would bring an equal amount of pressure as Castillo but he was a better and more clever fighter.

You can make comparisons of between many fighters. That doesn't mean they fought the same.

Try to even state why you don't agree with it and I'll cease to accuse you of not knowing what you're talking about.

Whitaker did stand and trade many times although he was adept at making people miss while doing so. I do not think either of them have the blend of speed and power that Leonard brought, not to mention they aren't as big as Leonard who was a natural welteweight several inches taller and reachier than Duran, Whitaker, Mayweather.

What's going to prevent Duran from walking in like Castillo did against Mayweather? I'm almost certain that had it been Duran in there instead of Castillo, not to mention had the fight been scheduled for 15 rounds, Mayweather would have left the fight with a loss on his record. Duran brings fast, relentless yet intelligent pressure.

Whitaker and Mayweather had enough of a good punch, however, in order to gain respect from their opponents.

While Whitaker didn't go for the knockout, he still had a good punch when he wanted to use it. Observe his fight with Louie Lomeli. He was pretty aggressive in that fight and he knew that he could take him out of there if he wanted to. He did.

The same with Mayweather. He was all about fighting a safe fight and not getting hit. When he wanted to use his power, he did.

I see both of them out-boxing Duran, en route to a decision. Duran would try to pressure but would get caught with counter-punches and would be missing more than he ever has before.

It doesn't matter? You're trying to discredit Duran's win over Davey Moore but you're not willing to point out why?

Well then, may we disregard Mayweather's victory over Hatton because he was using his elbows? I actually have the proof right here:

Here's some real lacing by Larry Holmes:

Evander Holyfield's career should be erased from the record books:

An exhibition on holding and hitting by Lennox Lewis:

I can go on.

Using your laces against someones eyes is a lot different than low blows, elbows and hitting behind the head. That's all common in the game of boxing. Using laces against the eyes, however, is not.

You compared Pacquiao fighting Cotto to Duran fighting Hagler, so yes, you are comparing Hagler and Cotto.

But fighting Hagler and fighting Cotto is not comparable.

The original response from me was about you asking if there was another fighter that went from bantamweight to middleweight and fought a competitively against the middleweight champion.

I gave you an example using Pacquiao. He climbed higher divisions and actually beat the champion instead of lost to the champion.

I am in no way comparing Hagler's legacy to Cotto's. I'm only comparing how much Duran and Pacquiao climbed up in weight and what weight division champions they beat. You're thinking I'm saying something different when, in fact, I'm not.

Are you still trying to claim that beating old, out of shape men like Weaver and Smith is in any way comparable to Duran's efforts against Castro? It speaks for itself.

Holmes didn't lose to either of them, while Duran did. Before you respond to this, read below.

I've seen his fights at light middleweight, middleweight and cruiserweight. He was as tough as they come and very strong physically.

That's your opinion. How about we finish the Castro talk because I find it to be quite useless.

[HaglerSteelChin]

How do you think Monzon would have done against a bigger, stronger and reachier fighter than he was? All of his opponents were smaller.

Right of the top of the head; Mundine and Benevenuti had about the same height and reach. He also Kod them. In addition, Mundine was kind of wide build and won national titles in the LHW and Cruiser divisions. He also beat a fighter called Roy Dale who was MUCH bigger than him like 5 inches taller; and of course Monzon murdered him in 5 rounds.

Monzon was shot and fought the same year with an injured leg, he was tougher than people think; even if he was a thug. There are many great fighters like ALi, Louis, Hagler,Wilde who all fought in one division. Monzon was obviously interested in having the most defense record which he held until BHOP broke it. Nowadays, with all those belts it's not as great as back in the day. Its pure subjective and speculation; but i have no doubt if Monzon was fighting today with the alphabet divisions he could have won titles at 168 and 175.