The level of Lewis' opponents

[Clegg]

I think he is just joking around Silencers. Good post earlier in the thread. I didn't know that about McCall and the ******* (I knew that he was a user, but not that he was still involved with/withdrawing from drugs around fight time).

By the way (and I'm not trying to nit-pick your post, just making conversation) I have always thought that part of the reason for Bowe's performance the second time against Golota was due to being weight-drained. Of course, the second fight wasn't majorly different to the first, but it did look to me as if Bowe had declined even further, and I've read that he lost something ridiculous like 40+lbs while training for that fight. I have always felt that perhaps losing weight so fast more than once in his career was part of why he was past it at such a young age, similar to how the weight loss affected RJJ.

[blacklodge]

I actually think time has helped Lewis' resume rather than hurt it. Looking back now, you can see that the fighters he fought were very good fighters in arguably the best heavyweight division since the 70s.

Michael Moorer was off for nearly 3 years after Holyfield beat him, Lewis of course went on to beat Holyfield.

Rid**** Bowe decided to throw his belt in a trash can rather than fight Lewis.

Ruiz got blown out by Tua and didn't really become significant again until after the Holyfield trilogy by which time Lewis was engaging in a mega fight with Tyson and was contemplating retirement.

Maskaev? Maybe after the first win against Rahman but Lewis was busy with Holyfield at the time and then Maskaev lost back to back knockout losses to Johnson and Whitaker.

I would definately say it's arguable that the heavys of the 90s to early 00s were better than Holmes' opposition. They weren't bad by any means, better than Tyson's, but I wouldn't call them very good.
Every one of those guys I mentioned (I forgot Chris Byrd) may have opted not to fight Lewis for all we know, but the fact remains that he didn't fight them. I'm not sure I easily call him better legacy wise that Holyfield during the time they were both fighting, despite the fact Holyfield lost to Lewis. I can't give him credit for being dominant when he only fought 2 of the 5 "big" heavyweight champions of his era (Bowe, Tyson, Holyfield, Foreman, Moorer). 6 if you count Ruiz (I don't). And both Tyson and Holyfield were as late as possible for Lewis to still retain any credibility, and I barely give him any for Tyson.
I would also definately say that wins over Golota, Grant, Briggs, Tua, Rahman, McCall, Holyfield, Tyson, etc. mean far less in retrospect than they did at the time. Golota was bugnuts, Grant was an over hyped journeyman, as was Briggs, Tua was limited and undertrained, Rahman was schizophrenic, McCall was crazier than Golota, Holyfield was faded and Tyson was long, long gone. At the time, however, Golota was a supremely skilled big man who lost focus during the Bowe fights, Grant was a future champion, Briggs was a future champion, Tua was Tyson-esque, Rahman was supremely skilled but had a few tough breaks (lucky punch against Makaev, bad stoppage against Tua), McCall had knocked out Lewis, Holyfield was a super champion and living legend and Tyson was still a threat. It all turned out to not be the case.
Lewis is great, he did what he was supposed to do for the most part, but if people are looking to place him up there with Holmes or Frazier, he needs to go under the microscope and there are some cracks in his credibility.

[GJC]

We have done this so many times with sonnyboy that I'm worn out typing the same old post. I am now a particular Lewis fan but I believe his resume is pretty strong. The fact that Golota didn't put up much of a show and was frankly potty, Ruddock was shot, Grant was a hype job etc is all known with hindsight. At the time Lewis fought them they were all legitimate, live dangerous opponents. As for the fighters he didn't fight you can throw up "why didn't he fight him" on virtually every fighter if you look back via boxingrec. What you have to look at is at that time were they a more legitimate contender, and lets be blunt it is a business, were they the most lucrative fight available?

[Silencers]

I think he is just joking around Silencers. Good post earlier in the thread. I didn't know that about McCall and the ******* (I knew that he was a user, but not that he was still involved with/withdrawing from drugs around fight time).

By the way (and I'm not trying to nit-pick your post, just making conversation) I have always thought that part of the reason for Bowe's performance the second time against Golota was due to being weight-drained. Of course, the second fight wasn't majorly different to the first, but it did look to me as if Bowe had declined even further, and I've read that he lost something ridiculous like 40+lbs while training for that fight. I have always felt that perhaps losing weight so fast more than once in his career was part of why he was past it at such a young age, similar to how the weight loss affected RJJ.

Honestly I think he was just shot for the rematch with Golota, don't think the weight had much to do with it. But maybe you're right.

I would definately say it's arguable that the heavys of the 90s to early 00s were better than Holmes' opposition. They weren't bad by any means, better than Tyson's, but I wouldn't call them very good.
Every one of those guys I mentioned (I forgot Chris Byrd) may have opted not to fight Lewis for all we know, but the fact remains that he didn't fight them. I'm not sure I easily call him better legacy wise that Holyfield during the time they were both fighting, despite the fact Holyfield lost to Lewis. I can't give him credit for being dominant when he only fought 2 of the 5 "big" heavyweight champions of his era (Bowe, Tyson, Holyfield, Foreman, Moorer). 6 if you count Ruiz (I don't). And both Tyson and Holyfield were as late as possible for Lewis to still retain any credibility, and I barely give him any for Tyson.
I would also definately say that wins over Golota, Grant, Briggs, Tua, Rahman, McCall, Holyfield, Tyson, etc. mean far less in retrospect than they did at the time. Golota was bugnuts, Grant was an over hyped journeyman, as was Briggs, Tua was limited and undertrained, Rahman was schizophrenic, McCall was crazier than Golota, Holyfield was faded and Tyson was long, long gone. At the time, however, Golota was a supremely skilled big man who lost focus during the Bowe fights, Grant was a future champion, Briggs was a future champion, Tua was Tyson-esque, Rahman was supremely skilled but had a few tough breaks (lucky punch against Makaev, bad stoppage against Tua), McCall had knocked out Lewis, Holyfield was a super champion and living legend and Tyson was still a threat. It all turned out to not be the case.
Lewis is great, he did what he was supposed to do for the most part, but if people are looking to place him up there with Holmes or Frazier, he needs to go under the microscope and there are some cracks in his credibility.

You can take apart anyone's resume if you look at the negatives.

I already listed the reasons why he didn't really have to fight Moorer. From what I know Tyson wasn't that eager to fight him either when he came out of prison and you're going to blame him for not fighting Bowe when Bowe threw his belt in the trash can on national TV instead of fighting him?

Golota was a skilled big man but yeah, he did have mental problems. It still doesn't take away the fact that Lewis knocked him out in 1 round.

As I said, you can take apart anyone's resume if you look hard enough. And I'd rank Lewis over Holyfield as far as heavyweights go.

Also, I never said he ranks above Holmes or Frazier, that's really another issue entirely. This thread is about Lewis' credentials and I think there's no doubt that the man was a great heavyweight.

[Benncollinsaad]

Honestly I think he was just shot for the rematch with Golota, don't think the weight had much to do with it. But maybe you're right.



You can take apart anyone's resume if you look at the negatives.

I already listed the reasons why he didn't really have to fight Moorer. From what I know Tyson wasn't that eager to fight him either when he came out of prison and you're going to blame him for not fighting Bowe when Bowe threw his belt in the trash can on national TV instead of fighting him?

Golota was a skilled big man but yeah, he did have mental problems. It still doesn't take away the fact that Lewis knocked him out in 1 round.

As I said, you can take apart anyone's resume if you look hard enough. And I'd rank Lewis over Holyfield as far as heavyweights go.

Also, I never said he ranks above Holmes or Frazier, that's really another issue entirely. This thread is about Lewis' credentials and I think there's no doubt that the man was a great heavyweight.

Oh, there is doubt. If you say "great", then the criterias are stronger and the criticism is natural. He didn't fight ALL the best guys out there and the Vitali win wasn't really legitimate. Not according to many, including me.

[Silencers]

Oh, there is doubt. If you say "great", then the criterias are stronger and the criticism is natural. He didn't fight ALL the best guys out there and the Vitali win wasn't really legitimate. Not according to many, including me.

Ray Robinson didn't fight ALL the best guys yet he's the greatest of all time, no one can fight ALL the fighters out there, it just can't be done. You beat one guy, there will always be another. I bet if he fought Moorer, Ruiz and the like people would still criticize him.

A stoppage on cuts is a legit win, it's part of boxing.

[Benncollinsaad]

Ray Robinson didn't fight ALL the best guys yet he's the greatest of all time, no one can fight ALL the fighters out there, it just can't be done. You beat one guy, there will always be another. I bet if he fought Moorer, Ruiz and the like people would still criticize him.

A stoppage on cuts is a legit win, it's part of boxing.

His wins over Mercer and Holyfield (II) are also disputed.

[Silencers]

His wins over Mercer and Holyfield (II) are also disputed.

The Mercer fight I can understand, if you read my first post I said it could've gone either way.

The second Holyfield fight I just don't see how that was disputed, closer yes, disputed no.

[GJC]

His wins over Mercer and Holyfield (II) are also disputed.

Mercer was close but he beat Holyfield in the second fight just ironically not as convincingly as in the first fight.

[mickey malone]

Here are some of his more noteworthy performances..
All against top 10 fighters..

He KO'd the very best version of Frank Bruno
He KO'd Shannon Briggs who had just beaten Foreman
He KO'd Botha who had just drawn with Briggs
He KO'd Ruddock who had just KO'd Jackson & stopped Page
He KO'd Morrison who had just KO'd Ruddock & beaten Foreman
He beat Mercer who KO'd Morrison
He KO'd Golota who had exposed Bowe
He KO'd Grant who had KO'd Golota
He beat Tua who had KO'd Ruiz, Izon & Maskaev
He beat Holyfield who had only lost to Bowe & Moorer
He stopped Vitali who is still arguably no1, still to this day!

So who did he duck?

A prime Tyson because he was in prison? or Ibeabuchi because he was in the nut house? I know certain posters believe that Lewis ducked Bowe, but absolutely nothing could be further from the truth, and we'll put it to the vote if need be..

Perhaps he should have fought Vaughn Bean, Lou Saverese, Jesse Ferguson, Bert Cooper or even Tim Tomashek lol, but one things for certain, he fought the very best available to him, and beat them all.. Moorer could have stepped up, and would of had a punchers chance, but I'm not sure whether or not, that match was ever suggested?
As you can see from the above top tenners, he was right in the very thick of it when it came to fighting against good quality opposition..
I'd say the only guy he ever ducked was Ruiz, not because he couldn't beat him, but more because he might look bad doing it..