Ali Frazier trilogy- your verdict

[boxing_great]

Does anybody think that Frazier won 2 of the 3 fights?

While it was hard to judge some rounds, as they were really close, I kina feel Frazier might have won the 1st 2 fights.Even the 3rd fight, Ali was close to giving up , had Frazier not done it first.

I think Frazier's constant left hooks were much more damaging than Ali's jabs and straight rights.

Anybody else feel Frazier edged it?

Also, the Ali /Frazier trilogy isn't as good as people have made it out to be in my opinion, it wasn't edge of your seat type fights.

[Thread Stealer]

It seemed to me that Ali legitimately won the 2nd fight. I never scored it and have little interest in ever seeing that fight again. It was horrible.

Ali-Frazier is one of the great trilogies in history. The 1st and 3rd fights were classics. However, the 2nd was dull, and there have been some trilogies in which all 3 fights were very good (or great). Bowe-Holyfield and Vazquez-Marquez.

[Hawkins]

I think Ali-Frazier I was a clear win for Joe. He attacked the body mercilessly and truly went after Ali like few had...we also clearly saw that Ali wasn't the same...he couldn't dance for 15 rounds like before. Ali took the first 3, IMO, then Frazier pulled ahead..it wasn't easy because it was very close but the end for Ali started in 11..those last 3 rounds especially sealed the deal for Joe.

The 2nd one was rather dull compared to the bookends....after hurting Joe with a right hand bomb in 2nd round Ali used his jab and kept his distance to pick up the UD.

As far as the Thrilla I think Ali would have won had it went the distance. Joe had the middle of the fight and I think Ali took the rest. I don't think Frazier won 2. He clearly won the 1st, clearly lost the 2nd and more than likely would have lost the third.

[Thread Stealer]

As far as the Thrilla I think Ali would have won had it went the distance. Joe had the middle of the fight and I think Ali took the rest. I don't think Frazier won 2. He clearly won the 1st, clearly lost the 2nd and more than likely would have lost the third.

The question more for the 3rd fight is not who would've won on points (Ali), but whether or not Ali would have come out for the 15th had Futch not stopped it. Ali has said that he was too exhausted to come out for the last round.

[Hawkins]

Very true, Ali needs to credit Angelo with that. Ali wanted to quit and Angelo wouldn't let him. Realistically Ali should have retired after the Thrilla...that took the last of him..he was never the same.

[LondonRingRules]

I think Ali-Frazier I was a clear win for Joe. He attacked the body mercilessly and truly went after Ali like few had...we also clearly saw that Ali wasn't the same...he couldn't dance for 15 rounds like before. Ali took the first 3, IMO, then Frazier pulled ahead..it wasn't easy because it was very close but the end for Ali started in 11..those last 3 rounds especially sealed the deal for Joe.

** I know your all yoked up over being back, but no need to start in with the sillyness.

You should be thinking about your legacy in case your son somehow pulls this thread up years from now. Ali never danced 15 rds in his life, nor 10, and only just maybe 6 rds broken up over a fight, and no more than 3 consecutive rds.

Chuvalo provided one of a few blueprints in how to beat Ali. George just lacked the youthful zest of Frazier and was a half step slower on the cut off with about 80% of the Frazier work rate. The first fight wasn't really close except maybe through the first 6-8 rds. Frazier established that he was the bull and Ali the china shop and Frazier just rampaged him.

The argument that Ali mysteriously lost his footwork in the layoff is blown to smithereens by the Chuvalo fight where he spends most of the fight on the ropes or in retreat having to fight a charging George off. Maybe something to do with ring size as the Liston ring for the first fight looked pretty big, but maybe the younger Chuvalo just that much faster afoot than old Sonny.

2nd fight a bit dreary and too close to judge properly. 3rd fight Joe makes Ali quit. Ali was ahead on the scoring that I disagree with, primarily with the range. Typically a body puncher like Joe doesn't get proper credit and he rips some good'uns.

Technically Ali wins 2 of 3, but Joe won the Big Daddy. Joe also knows he had Ali's number and it was divine intervention by Eddie Futch to keep Ali from being KOed that last round whether by retirement or Joe landing a Hail Mary.

[Hawkins]

** I know your all yoked up over being back, but no need to start in with the sillyness.

You should be thinking about your legacy in case your son somehow pulls this thread up years from now. Ali never danced 15 rds in his life, nor 10, and only just maybe 6 rds broken up over a fight, and no more than 3 consecutive rds.

Chuvalo provided one of a few blueprints in how to beat Ali. George just lacked the youthful zest of Frazier and was a half step slower on the cut off with about 80% of the Frazier work rate. The first fight wasn't really close except maybe through the first 6-8 rds. Frazier established that he was the bull and Ali the china shop and Frazier just rampaged him.


The argument that Ali mysteriously lost his footwork in the layoff is blown to smithereens by the Chuvalo fight where he spends most of the fight on the ropes or in retreat having to fight a charging George off. Maybe something to do with ring size as the Liston ring for the first fight looked pretty big, but maybe the younger Chuvalo just that much faster afoot than old Sonny.

I know you hold severe disdain for the man but give me a break! Why do you think it became a well known fact that Ali could take a punch? His greatest defensive asset, his legs, were not what they once were. In the 6th round of the 1st Frazier fight he was severely gassed.

After the lay-off he could not keep up the pace from before the exile...not even close and for you to suggest otherwise is completely ludicrous. You continued attempts to descredit Ali and his legacy are mystifying.

2nd fight a bit dreary and too close to judge properly. 3rd fight Joe makes Ali quit. Ali was ahead on the scoring that I disagree with, primarily with the range. Typically a body puncher like Joe doesn't get proper credit and he rips some good'uns.

Technically Ali wins 2 of 3, but Joe won the Big Daddy. Joe also knows he had Ali's number and it was divine intervention by Eddie Futch to keep Ali from being KOed that last round whether by retirement or Joe landing a Hail Mary.

When it comes to Ali there is no quarter with you. Your hatred for Ali overshadows all. Ali won that 2nd fight..he kept Joe at bay for the most part...wasn't exciting but it was a win. The 3rd was up in the air until the latter rounds. Ali wanted to quit but Angelo wouldnt have let him...physically Frazier was in much worse shape and was behind on the scorecards. Either way you cannot question Ali's heart in that fight, nor ever.

As far as Joe having Ali's number.... i think you have that backwards

[Thread Stealer]

Neither Ali nor Frazier had each other's number.

Now Foreman having Frazier's number, that is a different story.

[StarshipTrooper]

Ali clearly won the second fight and only someone with a bias for aggression over slickness could claim otherwise. The third fight, Ali was ahead on all cards at the time of the stoppage and had the 14th been counted it would have given Ali an insurmountable lead going into the 15th if Frazier had been allowed to continue. Joe would have had to have gotten the KO to win.

The first fight was interesting in that Ali was ahead after 12 rounds but Frazier turned the fight with a big left hool in the 13th. It was all Frazier the last three rounds.

Poet

[LondonRingRules]

I know you hold severe disdain for the man but give me a break! Why do you think it became a well known fact that Ali could take a punch? His greatest defensive asset, his legs, were not what they once were. In the 6th round of the 1st Frazier fight he was severely gassed.

After the lay-off he could not keep up the pace from before the exile...not even close and for you to suggest otherwise is completely ludicrous. You continued attempts to descredit Ali and his legacy are mystifying.:

** Gots to credit you with coming back with some really good whoppers.

You dears ain't figured out yet that any discredit, such if it even exists, is with you or the boxing establishment, not Ali who certainly fought just about every fighter possible in his two eras.

I see him as a young ambitious man overflowing with talent and possessing notable weaknesses in a career that not only transcended boxing, but became emblematic of the 60s era. He never walked on water in my world any more than Dylan, JFK, MLK, the Beatles, or Vietnam War protests and riots did, but of course others need real life heros who do walk on water.

Is it a discredit that 5 officially beat him, and beat him pretty bad? Is that in denial now along with the beatings he took along with disputed wins? Someone was hitting him hard and often to put him in his current state, so it'd have to be the most obstinate of the delusional worshippers to think otherwise.

The only fight I can think of where using legwork actually helped Ali win a fight was the first Liston fight. Otherwise, 90% of the time when he breaks out the legwork, it was about as useful as the Ali shuffle in breaking opponents down. He read the press and realized it could be used as a promotional gimmick and it works on you and your brethren obviously.

So Ali got gassed in the 6th? He was also gassed in the Chuvalo fight at a slower pace. Gassed after a very active 7-8th round against Terrell, gassed in the thrilla, gassed in the jungle, but if he walks on water, why we can't have a living god being gassed like mere mortals of common clay, heaven forbid.

Don't recall anyone stating that Ali couldn't take a punch, so why do you think it became a well known fact that Ali liked to use the ropa dope in the latter stages of his career? Sure didn't help his long term health prospects. I'd say his Tex Cobb like chin helps him out infinitely more than his running style footwork since Liston still managed to clock him a couple of times in the first fight.

Getting back to Frazier, the guy was fighting and beating the contenders Ali hadn't yet got around to, younger, stronger, and more prime than what Ali was beating with the exception of Terrell and Chuvalo, so Joe was definitely a match for Ali by the time of the draft conviction.

I just happen to think that Joe has the edge in the trilogy. It wasn't easy being Joe Frazier post 1967, yet he carries it off with a zest that few heavies ever had in their championship days. Reminds me of having to be Aaron Pryor post SRLeonard's retirement. No matter how many opponents he and Joe blistered, fickle Hollywood entertainment type fans preferred a supersized cup of flashdancing and a bucket full of popcorn flurries with their show.