RJJ vs Ezzard Charles LHW Title who wins?

[LondonRingRules]

Glass jaw? Are you jokin'? The reason that RJJ was even KOable in the fights against Tarver and Johnson is because of the weight he lost jumping quickly down from heavy to lhw in such a short period of time.

** Interesting take on Jones overall, but let's address the above specifically.

Roy had 8 months from Ruiz to the first Tarver fight. A lot of time even for less active modern fighters. Roy won that fight. It's over 14 months until the Tarver KO. That's a lot of training time.

I wouldn't say Roy has a glass jaw. That's terminology thrown about by loose fans most of the time. It means no more than "Roy sucks" would mean. Roy has largely followed a safety first type of career in the 2nd half of his prime, and at any rate I doubt he ever took a flush bomb like Tarver landed at any time in his career. It was a one off shot, the kind Tarver made his name on in rematches.

OK, now Johnson. Tough journeyman type fighter lined up for the WBO belt and leverage for the Tarver negotiations. Strictly business, except that Roy forgot he was in the hurt business and just hung out on the ropes, probably figuring Johnson would wear out. Who wouldn't at that pace?

Thing is, Roy looked like he was answering his cell phone, chatting up his little buddies in the audience, waiting for Johnson to fall apart, but it didn't happen that way. Bad strategy did him in.

Weight loss? Oh really? I'd love dearly to know how much he really weighed for Ruiz. Nobody but the innercamp knows. I suspect he was around 188-190, which means he would only need to lose a few lbs to be at his LH ring weight of 185+, but since he juked the scales, I can't prove it and neither can you.

Now, I admire Jone's style immensely, and can see why the nattering noobs to boxing froth all over each other praising his greatness. Happens every new generation of fans and fighters. Think back to Tyson if you even remember that far back.

However, EZ was the real deal. Toney and Hop can't hold his prime jock. Virgil Hill a poor man's Ez. Agree that Ez would have his hands full with Roy, but vice versa. You can talk about level playing fields, but it's a fact Jack, look it up, Ez put himself on the line against a whole lotta more punches and HOFers than did Roy in a more competitive era and did it in 6oz horsehair gloves. Boxing deaths peaked in his era.

Might want to add some balance to your analysis lest you get gratuitously KDed for sport.

[wmute]

Head to head there is no question, in my mind, that Roy Jones Jr. would walk away with the win if they had fought.

Head to head, Roy Jones Jr. in his prime would have laid the hurt down on anyone that got in the ring with him.

You talk about the people in the past having fought once every three weeks. So what? Everyone fought once every three weeks back then, so they were all on a level playing field. It's not like the people Charles fought were all rested up and training for a year to fight him. That's not how it worked. It's the same now. Roy Jones Jr. and whoever he ended up fighting trained for the same amount of time, so they were on a level playing field. Just because Charles fought more doesn't make him better or more durable because the guys he was fighting fought just as much if not more than him.

Glass jaw? Are you jokin'? The reason that RJJ was even KOable in the fights against Tarver and Johnson is because of the weight he lost jumping quickly down from heavy to lhw in such a short period of time. Because he made the muscle in his legs detriorate he lost the spring in his legs, and with it his ability to absorb the shock from being hit in the chin as well as he used to. Legs are a big part of the chin if you know how the body works.

I don't think you guys fully understand just how good Roy Jones was. He didn't even have to use conventional boxing. He went, what, almost 10 years without losing a round? He didn't just beat the other greats of his era, he crushed them. He made James Toney who, at the time, was considered the king P4P, look like an absolute bum. You can make any excuse you want for another fighter when they were against Jones...but it's just like he said; it's not that he didn't fight nobody, he just made them look like nobody.

Look at Clinton woods. Only decisive loss of his career, in which he is the LHW champion now? Yeah, it came from Jones who won every single round against him before the other corner threw in the towel. Look at Lucas. Lucas ended up being another title holder that faced off against Kessler.

If you're talking about power, this Ezzard Charles better have a chin of pure granite because RJJ could knock anyone out he fought. He chose not to. He blantantly stated that if he can go into the ring and fight a guy without having to hurt him, he will. He hated knocking people out right away and trying to hurt them, so in stead he was notorious for carrying his opponents through the fight. Where is this exemplified perfectly? The two Montel Griffin fights. The first fight, RJJ wasn't looking to hurt the guy and carried him through the fight until he got Disq'ed. What did this do? It pissed RJJ off. How did the next fight end? Round 1 KO. RJJ wasn't messing around that fight. RJJ broke a guy's ribs with one punch. If we're talking about power RJJ is not to be messed with.

Speed? RJJ is the fastest boxer, P4P, of all time. No question. Ezzard Charles wouldn't be avoiding **** especially with RJJ's immaculate timing. You're talking about a guy that can hit you from any angle, at any time, and he's already out of the way before you have a chance to throw a counter. But, not only that, he isn't afraid to stand and trade. Watch his fight with Ruiz. After his confidence was built up, he traded with Ruiz for a bit and, not only that, but got the better of it. He stunned Ruiz. He made Ruiz afraid to rush in. I'm 100% certain that if RJJ wasn't trying to prove he could go 12 rounds with a Heavyweight, he would have KOed Ruiz. And don't forget that Ruiz has only been KO'ed once in his entire career and he's faced some pretty strong guys.

So we're talking about a match-up where the power MIGHT go to Ezzard, but if it does he doesn't have a huge power advantage. Speed? No question goes to RJJ. Timing? RJJ. Reflexes? RJJ. The fight? RJJ. Ezzard Charles would be taking more explosive and powerful shots to the head than he ever took in his career when he fought professionally and regardless of how tough your chin is after a while that stuff wears you down. Not to mention the brutal body shots that RJJ gives with the same kind of power behind them. I'd call RJJ to win by KO by the 7th or 8th if he was actually trying to KO him, but, if not, UD for RJJ losing maybe 1 or 2 rounds.

Jones did note carry Griffin in their first fight. He spent the first half of the fight figuring him out. That's quite different.

[wmute]

** Interesting take on Jones overall, but let's address the above specifically.

Roy had 8 months from Ruiz to the first Tarver fight. A lot of time even for less active modern fighters. Roy won that fight. It's over 14 months until the Tarver KO. That's a lot of training time.

I wouldn't say Roy has a glass jaw. That's terminology thrown about by loose fans most of the time. It means no more than "Roy sucks" would mean. Roy has largely followed a safety first type of career in the 2nd half of his prime, and at any rate I doubt he ever took a flush bomb like Tarver landed at any time in his career. It was a one off shot, the kind Tarver made his name on in rematches.

OK, now Johnson. Tough journeyman type fighter lined up for the WBO belt and leverage for the Tarver negotiations. Strictly business, except that Roy forgot he was in the hurt business and just hung out on the ropes, probably figuring Johnson would wear out. Who wouldn't at that pace?

Thing is, Roy looked like he was answering his cell phone, chatting up his little buddies in the audience, waiting for Johnson to fall apart, but it didn't happen that way. Bad strategy did him in.

Weight loss? Oh really? I'd love dearly to know how much he really weighed for Ruiz. Nobody but the innercamp knows. I suspect he was around 188-190, which means he would only need to lose a few lbs to be at his LH ring weight of 185+, but since he juked the scales, I can't prove it and neither can you.

Now, I admire Jone's style immensely, and can see why the nattering noobs to boxing froth all over each other praising his greatness. Happens every new generation of fans and fighters. Think back to Tyson if you even remember that far back.

However, EZ was the real deal. Toney and Hop can't hold his prime jock. Virgil Hill a poor man's Ez. Agree that Ez would have his hands full with Roy, but vice versa. You can talk about level playing fields, but it's a fact Jack, look it up, Ez put himself on the line against a whole lotta more punches and HOFers than did Roy in a more competitive era and did it in 6oz horsehair gloves. Boxing deaths peaked in his era.

Might want to add some balance to your analysis lest you get gratuitously KDed for sport.

Apparently he was weighing around 198. If you look beyond the glory there is footage of friday evening after the weigh in, when Jones and his camp brag about how big he is. He weighs in again, the scale shows 198 and they Stuff like “Ruiz is gonna: think this mutha****a aint 193”

Now unless, they were already planning to use the weight excuse in the next fight, Jones had to lose more than 20 pounds of muscle. That's a lot. I dont know if it affects your chin, as I am not a doctor.

[LondonRingRules]

Apparently he was weighing around 198. If you look beyond the glory there is footage of friday evening after the weigh in, when Jones and his camp brag about how big he is. He weighs in again, the scale shows 198 and they Stuff like “Ruiz is gonna: think this mutha****a aint 193”

Now unless, they were already planning to use the weight excuse in the next fight, Jones had to lose more than 20 pounds of muscle. That's a lot. I dont know if it affects your chin, as I am not a doctor.

** Apparently?

Like I stated, nobody knows Roy's real weight. The official weigh in in street clothes. He could have weighed 165 and juked dead weight underneath, a long tradition in boxing.

Now, why would Jones have to lose more than 20lbs of muscle to fight as a LH when his ring weight was traditionally 185+ at that weight? 198-185 is 13lbs, but you still can't tell me objectively how much he weighed for Ruiz. You only saw what he claimed to weigh, which was not the official weight, which nobody could tell his real weight from anyway because the weighin was designed to be disingenuous from the start.

[wmute]

** Apparently?

Like I stated, nobody knows Roy's real weight. The official weigh in in street clothes. He could have weighed 165 and juked dead weight underneath, a long tradition in boxing.

Now, why would Jones have to lose more than 20lbs of muscle to fight as a LH when his ring weight was traditionally 185+ at that weight? 198-185 is 13lbs, but you still can't tell me objectively how much he weighed for Ruiz. You only saw what he claimed to weigh, which was not the official weight, which nobody could tell his real weight from anyway because the weighin was designed to be disingenuous from the start.

I understand that weigh ins can be deceptive, but why would Roy and his camp brag about how big Roy got, (NOTE no one would have seen that video before the Ruiz fight) unless he actually got that big?

I think Roy ring weight was in the low 180s, not in the high 180s btw.

[wmute]

** Apparently?

Oops, Apparently is a “false friend” for Italians. What I meant to say is ”it looks like“, but I read that what apparently means is “beyond doubt”.

So read my post as ”it looks like Roy's weight was 198-199“

[Vigilant3]

Yeah they did a television series with Roy Jones Jr. for the Ruiz fight. When he came back from the weigh in after they weighed him at 193, he stepped on the scale and came up 201. Then he took off his clothes and he weighed 200.

On the night of the fight they did another weighing of him, this time in just his boxers, with an official weighing him. It came up at 199.

The fight with Tarver was at LHW. Regardless of what his RING WEIGHT is, he had to go all the way down to 175 for the official weigh in. That's 25 pounds of muscle that he lost.

In terms of what that does to your chin? The deteriorated muscle in your legs takes away the spring. It's very hard, regardless of how much time you have, to get that muscle to be healthy again after that kind of drain. The spring in your legs is very important to taking a punch on the chin because it helps absorb the shock from your body. Since the spring in his legs was gone once he fought Tarver and Johnson, he got knocked out by punches that, in his prime, wouldn't have phazed him.

Also to MrMachine:

Joe Louis never fixed that problem he had with his style. He just went at Schmeling all out in the first round and threw as many punches as he could to try and knock the guy out. Using his overwhelming power to just outbrawl the guy. It's what elicited the famous phrase "There's nothing more terrifying than having Joe across the ring and knowing he wants to go home early." Or something like that, I can't find the exact quote.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree, I was being a little ****** with my comment before about you knowing nothing about boxing yadayada. Sorry.

[La_Vibora]

Well as has already been stated, Charles wasn't the same after killing Baroudi, I think most historians would agree that up until that point that Charles was about on the same level as Ray Robinson, but after that he just didn't have the same killer instinct anymore. With that said it really does seem like a toss up fight, on one hand I could see Charles power overwhelming Jones, but then again I could see RJJ's speed giving Charles some trouble, however I would be willing to bet that Charles could adjust to his style as he had done with many other fighters. I think the best way to really figure this question out is to see how exactly Charles defeated Charley Burley since Burley's style has been regarded by some as a more technically sound Roy Jones(can't really comment since I only have the Oakland Billy Smith rematch to go on however I did see the similarities), although Burley does appear to be a naturally smaller man than Jones since he was fighting at welterweight. It really is a shame that we don't have important historical fights like this on tape.

[TheGreatA]

Burley's former sparring partner A.J. "Blackie" Nelson offers this comparison: "I see a lot of Charley in this kid, Roy Jones Junior. Both had unorthodox styles, could hit you from any angle, both hard to hit. Charley jabbed more than Jones, if Jones would concentrate on boxing as Charley did, he would become an all-time great."

Eddie Futch, the great trainer, called Burley "the finest all-around fighter I ever saw."

Charles was the only man who truly bested Burley, he beat Burley twice but there isn't much footage about Burley so I can't really say if he was like Roy Jones.

That's what the people who have seen Burley fight say, it's probably true, Burley was smaller than Roy though.

[La_Vibora]

Yea I hear you TheManchine, this isn't much to go on as it is only one fight, but I can definitely see the comparison to Roy Jones. For those that don't know Burley is the one in the black trunks.: