Questions For Tyson Fans

[Hawkins]

First and foremost, you just gave yourself away quickly.

You say older fighters one in particular Rocky Marciano is being prosecuted as fighting over the hill fighters, but mention the time Tyson faced Larry Holmes. You forgot to mention that Marciano faced a hand full and got away with it, with only one great standing out as a legit heavyweight in Joe Louis who might I add was fighting for money and not the spirit. Holmes didn't need money and kept fighting long after facing Tyson, went the distance with Holyfield Mercer and Smith with no problems, might I add he was much much more older than Moore could have ever been against Marciano at the time he faced him.

That sums up this question by you, Spinks is an exception because he was undefeated and like I have mentioned earlier, it's kind of hard for a fighter who has never been beaten to take in the concept of losing a fight. He has never lost so how is he to know what it feels like, mentally Spinks was all there, that was until he got hit. Charles Walcott Moore all these light heavies were beaten and out on their feet long before facing Marciano. Not only that, but all of these man faced Marciano in his era. Holmes era was the 80's, everyone knows that he just got outpointed by a fighter who was tailor made to destroy the boxer if you will.

For the record - I am NOT a Tyson hater. I just feel compelled to turn back the tide of...well, utter bull**** being spewed by some people...Tyson fought in a weak era but so did alot of other guys. Is that their fault? No. You can only fight who is there so it's not fair to simply rundown a fighter based on that. It doesn't make them any less of a fighter it just means they followed, what was usually, a stronger period in the division.

I do think it's unfair, for you, and others to dismiss Marciano for the same reasons you defend Tyson. You can't on one hand say Holmes was a great achievement for Tyson but deride Marciano for facing Charles or Walcott or Moore.

The fact is, Archie Moore is one of the rare athletes that sustained a level of excellence far beyond the point he should have. But again, you even point out that Floyd Patterson defeated Moore as if it were a great feather in his cap yet dismiss Marciano for the same reasonings. It doesn't make alot of sense to me.

With all this being said, I have a question for you Hawkins.

I myself can say that I am a huge Marciano fan, he is of Italian heritage and so am I. One thing that intrigues me most about his career, is that is was souly based on fighters that didn't pose a big threat at the time for Marciano. What would have happened to Rocky Marciano had he stayed a bit longer to defend his title against Floyd Patterson? Rocky would have been 33 years of age and still very capable of the greatness he supposedly contained. Besides that, I thought Marciano preferred light heavyweights as oppose to great heavyweights? Sure Marciano commentated for the Patterson - Moore fight, but he did it in a respectful manner of Floyd Patterson's skills. I honestly believe that Marciano tasted his first time of fear. Scared of an up and coming Floyd Patterson who had the skills to break down almost anyone who stood before him. He was rocked by Archie Moore a very old one I might add, so what do you think a younger faster more durable Floyd Patterson would have done better that Moore could not success upon. How would have Marciano dealt with a flurry of punches hitting his face with the speeds of second to none and accuracy to leave him cut and battered. I think Patterson would have cleaned Marciano's clock and given him his first lose, great move Rocky.......great move!

How the hell did this become leveled at Marciano? Anyways...

I don't think Marciano was scared of Floyd Patterson and Patterson certainly played no role in Marciano retiring. Plus I'm not sure Patterson was in-line for a title shot at the time Marciano retired. He retired in mid-'55 and Patterson won the title in late '56 AFTER he had beaten a couple of top contenders and won the title-eliminator match with Jackson in order to face Moore.

But to say Marciano preferred light heavyweights is ludicrous. He faced whomever was top contender. Besides, who else was there to fight? I know you'll say Patterson but like I said I don't think he was considered a top cotender at the time Rock retired.

Aside from that IF the match had occurred it likely wouldn't have mattered to you. If Rocky had won then no big deal - he had beaten a light heavy if he had lost - no big deal he would have been nothing anyway. You seem to fail to realize that these guys, and Marciano weren't seperated by a great deal of weight. You make it sound as it Marciano weighed 230 lbs and was taking on 170 lb guys when you make these proclomations.

Who else was left for Marciano? He had beaten LaStarza, Layne and Matthews on his way to the title. As champion he beat every top contender there was in the division. You do know the main reason he retired was to get away from his thieving manager right? His manager was stealing him blind so he retired with the full intention of coming back.

Anyways, I've heard alot of flak leveled at Marciano but accusing him of cowardice takes the cake. I digress from the original point - Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson all reigned during weak periods. But every one of them beat everyone who was considered a contender and cleaned out their divisions. What more can you ask of anyone?

[The Iron Man]

[QUOTE=Hawkins;2786318]I do think it's unfair, for you, and others to dismiss Marciano for the same reasons you defend Tyson. You can't on one hand say Holmes was a great achievement for Tyson but deride Marciano for facing Charles or Walcott or Moore. QUOTE]

Read the last sentance and your answer is within it. Holmes was no push over as he proved he kept fighting and winning and neither was Moore. But Marciano fought far more over the hill (so to speak) people than tyson. You have named 3 aginst 1 for tyson.

[Hawkins]

You seem pretty knowledgeable about boxing history, but to say Tyson didn't make it into the top 10, you must be comparing entire careers. Because certainly, you could not name 10 other heavyweight champions that could have beaten Tyson. If you can, we have some serious differences here. LOL

I can do better than that. I can name one journeyman heavyweight and one blown-up, over the hill cruiserweight that could defeat Tyson. Thus the reason he fails to make my top-ten.

[The Iron Man]

I can do better than that. I can name one journeyman heavyweight and one blown-up, over the hill cruiserweight that could defeat Tyson. Thus the reason he fails to make my top-ten.

Theres no Point even trying to discuss this with you. You wont budge or Accept any reasoning or what ever so ill say this.


Lennox Lewis - Lost to two Journey Men

Marciano - Fought in the Weakest Era, Technically not great at all.

Liston - Only Real test was Ali which he failed in both times. Once in the first round with that Iron Chin. Alis odds were pretty bad to win..

Dempsey - Lost to His only real Chanllenge in Gene Tunney a blown up Light Heavy.

Holmes - Weak Era, didnt really beat any1 worth mentioning apart from an Old Ali and Losing to two blown up light heavys

There are reasons for many, i feel that Tyson is looked into more than anyother heavyweight on the list

[Hawkins]

Theres no Point even trying to discuss this with you. You wont budge or Accept any reasoning or what ever so ill say this.

He asked a question - I answered him. He asked if any top 10 heavyweight could defeat Tyson and I went him one better.

And your right...Tyson is looked at more because his fans constantly bend the truth and warp the facts.

[The Iron Man]

Yeh they probably make it worse. When they bend the facts and that. As for could he be beaten by some other greats. I think so, Ali, Foreman, Liston, Louis, Holmes. Would all have a good chance, not to say he couldnt beat them tho.

[Hawkins]

Yeh they probably make it worse. When they bend the facts and that. As for could he be beaten by some other greats. I think so, Ali, Foreman, Liston, Louis, Holmes. Would all have a good chance, not to say he couldnt beat them tho.

The only problem I have, or have ever had, with the vast majority of Tyson fans is that they so easily dismiss everyone else as an afterthought to 'prime' Tyson that it borders on being ludicrous.

He may well have been able to beat anyone in history, but we'll never know because that sort of thing only exists in the fans' minds. To present all of these things as fact- Mike Tyson would annihilate anyone - is ridiculous.

Again, they only see what they want to see and ignore everything else. Thats not something I have to prove its self evident.

[The Iron Man]

We can never say any other heavy could beat the other! Thats the good thing, we can discuss it here lol! People have there favourites and some get...well too passionate.

[hellfire508]

I think because Holmes still had a lot left in him when Tyson destroyed him. One of his best wins was way after Tyson, and he continued to give good, sometimes great fighters a run for their money. Can't really say the same for old Ali, Louis, Liston etc.

Liston? Are you suggesting Holmes had more left at the time Tyson beat him than Liston did when Ali beat him? That's ridiculous, seriously. Holmes had been inactive for two years, and was coming off successive losses to Spinks as it was. Furthermore, he was 39 years old! For someone who lacks a serious punch, and relies heavily on speed and reflexes, that is ancient.

Liston on the other hand was coming off successive first round knockouts of Floyd Patterson, was the heavyweight champ, hasn't lost in 10 years, and was only 32 years old. (Though some say he was slightly older). If you watch Liston on film in the Patterson bouts, he was still very much the fighter he was in he pre-title peak, perhaps just slightly a lesser fighter. He looked slow against Ali, because of how fast Ali was, and how immobile he made him look.

[ROSS CALIFORNIA]

I can do better than that. I can name one journeyman heavyweight and one blown-up, over the hill cruiserweight that could defeat Tyson. Thus the reason he fails to make my top-ten.

Who's going to compare someones abilities while outside their prime? Someone that's looking for any reason to be right. LOL