Why did Sullivan refused to fight any black fighters?

[Longhaul]

A little of topic but there is a video of middleweight champ Stanley Ketchel boxing a exhibition with Jack Johnson and he knocks Johnson down on his ass and Johnson pissed off proceeds to knock the **** out of Ketchel in return.

[MDPopescu]

is it because he disliked them? or was he scared of them?.

Jack Johnson started boxing after Sullivan retired...

[Rusty Tromboni]

is it because he disliked them? or was he scared of them?.

They weren't considered very good. Kinda the way people in the General Forum half-jokingly talk about British fighters having no chin. Or people today talk about Black Quarterbacks or Black soccer players or Wrestlers.

Even post-war it was kinda considered a risk as a trainer taking on Black fighters. They were thought to quit too easily and to be easily broken mentally, and not too smart. Obviously, those opinions had largely subsided, but lots of people, especially Italians had that view. That's why it's impressive what guys like D'Amato, Dundee, Petronelli, and Clancy deserve a lot of credit. They saw past the ethnic bias.

Sullivan saw it an insult to fight them. So did guys like Loughran and Tunney, a full generation later.

Until after WWII, Boxing was mostly dominated by the White ethnicity du jour. After WWII, European emigration to the U.S. was all but ceased, and Whites rapidly advanced economically. Plus, other sports took over. The best Boxers were no longer White, but the best athletes still were.

[Rusty Tromboni]

As Dempsey himself admitted: He was afraid of Sam Langford. The black fighters, especially at heavyweight, were hungrier and more athletic and just better.

How about some footage to prove that?


Jack was full of the old-country vigor. He overcame obstacles no other contemporary or successor overcame.

[Rusty Tromboni]

A little of topic but there is a video of middleweight champ Stanley Ketchel boxing a exhibition with Jack Johnson and he knocks Johnson down on his ass and Johnson pissed off proceeds to knock the **** out of Ketchel in return.

Doesn't look like an exhibition. Johnson might not have been going full speed, but I doubt that was an exhibition.


Johnson generally fought smaller men. And while he's not some dude working for Geek Sqaud w/ Dorito stains on his wrinkled shirt, his skills have been insanely exaggerated over the years. Dempsey clearly fought a better opponent in Gibbons, Sharkey and even Firpo.

[TonyGe]

They weren't considered very good. Kinda the way people in the General Forum half-jokingly talk about British fighters having no chin. Or people today talk about Black Quarterbacks or Black soccer players or Wrestlers.

Even post-war it was kinda considered a risk as a trainer taking on Black fighters. They were thought to quit too easily and to be easily broken mentally, and not too smart. Obviously, those opinions had largely subsided, but lots of people, especially Italians had that view. That's why it's impressive what guys like D'Amato, Dundee, Petronelli, and Clancy deserve a lot of credit. They saw past the ethnic bias.

Sullivan saw it an insult to fight them. So did guys like Loughran and Tunney, a full generation later.

Until after WWII, Boxing was mostly dominated by the White ethnicity du jour. After WWII, European emigration to the U.S. was all but ceased, and Whites rapidly advanced economically. Plus, other sports took over. The best Boxers were no longer White, but the best athletes still were.

Obviously, those opinions had largely subsided, but lots of people, especially Italians had that view.


Rusty how did you arrive at that observation?? I know in my household we were taught tolerance. I was born in1951 by the way right around the "golden age of Italian intolerance" if we are to believe you. I think you should reevaluate what you said. Seriously.

[Longhaul]

Doesn't look like an exhibition. Johnson might not have been going full speed, but I doubt that was an exhibition.


Johnson generally fought smaller men. And while he's not some dude working for Geek Sqaud w/ Dorito stains on his wrinkled shirt, his skills have been insanely exaggerated over the years. Dempsey clearly fought a better opponent in Gibbons, Sharkey and even Firpo.

Yeah I think your right I hadn’t seen the video in years but the fight is definitely on his record as a loss.I also did not realize he was fighting so many guys that were small .

[Rusty Tromboni]

Obviously, those opinions had largely subsided, but lots of people, especially Italians had that view.


Rusty how did you arrive at that observation?? I know in my household we were taught tolerance. I was born in1951 by the way right around the "golden age of Italian intolerance" if we are to believe you. I am personally insulted by that remark.

Well, I think most Italians (most people) are very fine individuals. And I really don't judge people on their opinions but their intentions. I never took a poll of all Italians in America, but many I knew growing up the Mid-Atlantic had strong views re: Blacks, as they perceived them as a financial threat. Not just Italians, of course. Ethnic Whites in general held strong views. Kinda like today, the people who vote for ***** because of his stance on Spanish people pouring over the border, or Europeans angry about the Arabs invading.

I don't doubt that you were taught "tolerance" and saw things differently. I think D'Amato, Petronelli, and Dundee all showed great tolerance. But the truth is, Blacks followed Italians in the North as the arrival ethnic group. Italians had it very hard. I really don't think those who did have those views (not all) were bad people or anything. It's just human nature.

Believe me, many Italian (and other ethnic) neighborhoods were flourishing places, but have since become no-go zones... ******s. Not a judgement of Black people. But you can definitely appreciate why some ethnic Whites, held strong (not always flattering) opinions.

That being said, if you look at American government. Italian-American politicians have done more for Blacks, and other ********** than anyone else ever has.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Yeah I think your right I hadn’t seen the video in years but the fight is definitely on his record as a loss.I also did not realize he was fighting so many guys that were small .

Ironic, isn't it, the sport that's about the truest thing possible: two men sorting it out using their fists, could be so wrapped up in mythos and fable?

But that's what I am crusading against. Boxing is more about the stories than what actually happened inside the ring.

It makes things exciting, but it's dishonest. It also often does a disservice to many. How much do you hear about McFarland? At that time HE was probably the P4P King. But his story has lost currency, and therefore, so has his legacy.

[TonyGe]

Well, I think most Italians (most people) are very fine individuals. And I really don't judge people on their opinions but their intentions. I never took a poll of all Italians in America, but many I knew growing up the Mid-Atlantic had strong views re: Blacks, as they perceived them as a financial threat. Not just Italians, of course. Ethnic Whites in general held strong views. Kinda like today, the people who vote for ***** because of his stance on Spanish people pouring over the border, or Europeans angry about the Arabs invading.

I don't doubt that you were taught "tolerance" and saw things differently. I think D'Amato, Petronelli, and Dundee all showed great tolerance. But the truth is, Blacks followed Italians in the North as the arrival ethnic group. Italians had it very hard. I really don't think those who did have those views (not all) were bad people or anything. It's just human nature.

Believe me, many Italian (and other ethnic) neighborhoods were flourishing places, but have since become no-go zones... ******s. Not a judgement of Black people. But you can definitely appreciate why some ethnic Whites, held strong (not always flattering) opinions.

That being said, if you look at American government. Italian-American politicians have done more for Blacks, and other ********** than anyone else ever has.

Yeah let's leave it there and move forward.