Your Interpretation Of P4P

[QueensburyRules]

My point is that Robinson was not the first instance of p4p. I also remember Benny Leonard being referenced as p4p in an old newspaper article, but would have to do some research to find it. Obviously Robinson is most associated with the term, but he wasnt the first

- - John L Sullivan issued a p4p catchweight fight challenge back in the 1880s, duh...

To the Sporting Editor of the Enquirer:
I am prepared to make a match
To fight any man breathing for any
sum from $1000 to $10,000 at catch weights
This challenge is specially
directed at Paddy Ryan.

[JAB5239]

- - John L Sullivan issued a p4p catchweight fight challenge back in the 1880s, duh...

To the Sporting Editor of the Enquirer:
I am prepared to make a match
To fight any man breathing for any
sum from $1000 to $10,000 at catch weights
This challenge is specially
directed at Paddy Ryan.

This doesn't say a single thing about p4p. My point still stands. The term p4p was used way before the great Sugar Ray Robinson.

[QueensburyRules]

This doesn't say a single thing about p4p. My point still stands. The term p4p was used way before the great Sugar Ray Robinson.

- - U busted open again and still crying over U lack of boxing acumen.

Facts will alway remain that of all of the copious boxing writers in the dynamic Robinson era, a single long forgotten writer first penned with a description of P4P that he claimed Robinson was...

[JAB5239]

- - U busted open again and still crying over U lack of boxing acumen.

Facts will alway remain that of all of the copious boxing writers in the dynamic Robinson era, a single long forgotten writer first penned with a description of P4P that he claimed Robinson was...

Sorry, that's not a fact and I've proved it. Nice try though.

[Marchegiano]

My point is that Robinson was not the first instance of p4p. I also remember Benny Leonard being referenced as p4p in an old newspaper article, but would have to do some research to find it. Obviously Robinson is most associated with the term, but he wasnt the first

The New York Times used the term as early as the 1880s.

[JAB5239]

The New York Times used the term as early as the 1880s.

Thank you!! The term p4p was not created for Robinson. It's most often applied to him, but not created for.

[Marchegiano]

Thank you!! The term p4p was not created for Robinson. It's most often applied to him, but not created for.

Queen won't remember this but it was actually our first argument. I could go as far as agreeing the usage is slightly different and the modern understanding of the term is centered around Ray, but the often repeated origin story isn't true.

Pound-for-pound, contrary to popular belief, doesn't even come from boxing but rather how any two things compare when considering their weight. It's a matter of fact term like how you might use pound for pound to describe a deal. 5 dollars for 5 pounds of pork is pound for pound a better deal than 2 dollars for 1 pound of pork. Or to describe density. Oxygen is heavier than Helium and therefor pound-for-pound more dense.

Pound for pound as a matter of fact term would be used figuratively by boxing in the 19th century, Nonpareil was never called pound for pound champion but he was described as the pound for pound best champion.

NYT, as I mentioned prior, liked the term so maybe it was used in NY more often then other places, I am not sure.

I can tell you there was a syndicated article that ran around 1925 by Grantland Rice titled Pound for Pound. It was pretty popular and as far as I know it was the first time anyone had used it to rank boxers or designate a p4p champion.


Nonpareil was called Nonpareil ... the list of way authors restated 'most skilled in boxing' is nearly endless. It's the imagination of the late 19th century writers ... there's heaps ranging from outright saying "Would be HW champion if not for size" to the more clever pseudonym itself and everything in between. Grantland, imo, is the first usage that is more direct and purposeful. He's not just referring to a boxer's mystique using verbiage that separates himself, he's considering all of boxing in p4p terms.



I do not think there is a pre-dempsey p4p because weight divisions really barely existed before his era. One might have maybe described Mendoza or some such small HW champ as p4p but it would have been redundant as he was best in boxing period.

[Mr Mitts]

Wasn't it originally grocer's jargon?

[QueensburyRules]

The New York Times used the term as early as the 1880s.

- - I used the term in the 1770s with as much substance as U provide.