The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey...

[butterfly1964]

There is no excuse for that kind of record if you are considered a top ten heavyweight of all-time

Coming up on "The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame"...

Johnson and Dempsey's legacy, now if you look at their actual record, was to put it mildly, Mythic!

That ball was on the line!

It gets by Buckner!

Michigan can't take a timeout!

Tunney is down!

No good, wide right!

The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey for Losing and Drawing Many Fights Early in Their Careers

Hello, I'm butterfly1964, and Welcome to BoxingScene's edition of The Top Five Reasons You Can't Blame. A show that takes a look at boxing personalities and establishments who have made questionable decisions, controversial comments, or unpopular stances, and take a deeper look into these matters. My job is not to further villify these individuals, but to challenge conventional wisdom, and reexamine what has been accepted as fact. In this episode I'm counting down the top 5 reasons why you can't blame Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey for not being able to win many fights early in their careers. Two of boxing's biggest legends of the sport, but for some of whose fights were anything but legendary. Before I count down the reasons why you can't blame them, Here's some eveidence supporting this charge.

Both these guys have some sort of an aura about them, and you think of how great people say they are, but you have all these draws and losses on their record, and you think, "How can this be?"

If you look at all the other top ten heavyweights, most of them did not lose a single match early in their careers, with the exception of Joe Louis and Sonny Liston, who only lost one fight early, but it's just one fight, Johnson and Dempsey failed to get the W several times.

Fighters like Jersey Joe Walcott, and Ezzard Charles, lost a lot of fights early, but they aren't ranked in the top ten, Dempsey and Johnson are. There is no excuse for that kind of record if you are considered a top ten heavyweight of all-time, and many people have them ranked in the top five.

Some of these fighters that they lose to have dismal records themselves, it's unbelievable.

Johnson and Dempsey's legacy, now if you look at their actual record, was to put it mildly, Mythic!

Before I count down the top 5 reasons why you can't blame Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey for losing and drawing many fights early in their careers, here's one reason that didn't make the top five. I call it, "The Best of the Rest".














Best of the Rest

Boxing Was a Hobby - At the time that Johnson and Dempsey boxed, there wasn't much money in boxing, and some states wanted it banned. So to make up for their meager earnings in the ring, they had to find other lines of work. By doing this they might not have had the proper time to keep their body in shape and to keep the reflexes sharp, so they were at times not 100% for a fight. However, as they started to get noticed, and had more money, they devoted all their time to the fight game, and the losing stopped.








Coming up next on The Top Five Reasons You Can't Blame, we'll discuss how the media machine in sports today is one cause for Jack J. and Jack D.'s dismal records.

[butterfly1964]

Welcome back to "The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey for Losing and Drawing Many Fights Early in Their Careers".

Now we are ready for the countdown, starting with Reason #5.

















5: Lack of Equipment - Today, as well as for the past 60 years, boxers who were successful in winning amateur and olympic accolades, were catapulted to the forefront of the media and touted as great, up and coming prospects. However, tyhere were no Olympics or amateur tournaments in Johnson and Dempsey's time, so they were denied the things that a highly publicized new-comer gets in terms of equipment. Without Grade-A training, coaching, and conditioning, the young journeymen weren't able to get on top of the division like they wanted to. But like I said, once Dempsey and Johnson became well-known, and made more money, they were able to acquire the equipment needed, and they were more successful, career-wise.






How did that sound. If you are still not satisfied, here is Reason #4.




















4: Ill-Prepared - When Jack Johnson started boxing, he had to hop train cars to get to different cities to take fights; many of them were at the last minute. He didn't in many cases have the time to train as hard as he wanted to. Jack Dempsey's stuation was even worse. He basically lived in street cars, because he was a hobo. They were desperate for the money they would make as well, so sometimes they had no choice. They also unlike today, wouldn't be able to study the fighters before the fight, because it was someone they never saw before.

They sometimes would fight on an empty stomach, and you can't blame them under those situations

Stay tuned for more Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey for Losing and Drawing Many Fights Early in Their Careers.

[butterfly1964]

You're watching The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey for Losing and Drawing Many Fights Early in Their Careers

Let's continue the countdown. Reason #3.



















3: Fixed Fights - Because of desperate need for money, both fighters sometimes agreed to have fights fixed. One of the most memorable of that is Dempsey against Fireman Jim Flynn on February 13, 1917. The fight ended in less than ten seconds with dempsey laying on the ground for about five minutes. Word is that Dempsey agreed to this deal to get $500 instead of the $2 that would be given to him if he won the fight. In addition, Jack Johnson was known to cary fights to a draw in order to recieve a lot of money.

The one we remember is when he was champion in the Stanley Ketchel fight, when Ketchel strayed from the script and knocked Johnson down, so Johnson retaliated by knocking Ketchel half dead, hahahaha!

How did that grab you? If you are still unsure, then here's Reason #2.
























2: Age - Jack Johnson started his pro debut on February 1, 1894, at the age of fifteen! At that age, he was fighting grown men who at the time, he just had no chance against. Dempsey at nineteen, was fighting men who were often bigger and stronger than him. He had no chance as well.

Johnson was between 165-170 lbs., and Dempsey was between 160-165 as well, and they were at times fighting heavyweights, people who outweighed them by at least 20lbs. You can't blame them for losing fights given those circumstances.

Coming up, our Number 1 reason why you can't blame Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey for losing and drawing many fights early in their careers. Have you guessed it? Here's a clue.

Do you think that Muhammad Ali would have beat Sonny Liston if they fought in 1961? No!

[butterfly1964]

We're counting down The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey for Losing and Drawing Many Fights Early in Their Careers. Here's a recap.

Number 5: Lack of Equipment



Number 4: Ill-Prepared



Number 3: Fixed Fights



and...



Number 2: Age

You've seen Reasons five through two, now here is Reason #1.
















1: No Protection - Unlike today, young up and coming fighters weren't avoiding the big name fighters until they were more experienced, they fought them at any age, and Johnson and Dempsey was no different.

Jack Johnson fought respected fighters at the early stage of his career, like Joe Choynski, Joe Jeannette, Young Peter Jackson, Sam Langford, and others. Many of them beat him or held him to a draw in his pre-prime and in their prime.

Dempsey also fought decent fighters as well, such as Jack Downey and Willie Meehan. This also was a pre-prime Dempsey.

Dempsey and Johnson fought anyone at any point, cause they had to. Imagine fighters today doing that? Do you think that Muhammad Ali would have beat Sonny Liston if they fought in 1961? No! Ali would have gotten killed! Clay was barely getting by fighters like Sonny Banks, so there's no way he could take a prime Liston.

Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey fought at a time that today we don't know much about, so we tend to underrate them. But no doubt about, they were great!

That will do it for this edition of "Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame". I'm butterfly1964, thanks for watching.















In 1920, shortly after serving over a year in prison for the Voilation of The Mann Act, a 43 year old Jack Johnson challenged the 25 year old Dempsey in an effort to win back his title.


Dempsey's camp refused the offer.

Butterfly Productions Inc.
?2006

[butterfly1964]

So how did ya'll like it?

[hemichromis]

hedy your coming ujp with some good threads!

i agree with everything you said especcially reason 1

[Eno]

I like these things. Keep up the good work.

[leff]

So how did ya'll like it?

YUPP,well done

have some k

[Tong Po]

Haha! Great read! All of the reasons make alot of sense, the only thing I can say I'd change is to switch #'s 3 & 4 around. Being ill-prepared I believe is one of the worse reasons for losing alot of those early fights in Johnsons case, sometimes he'd take a fight with less than 24 hours notice, and wouldn't know anything about his opponent. Also, the Best of the Rest. Damn, if only there had have been 6 reasons.

Great effort you put in there.

[Kid Achilles]

Don't forget about the lack of a strong amateur boxing program in those times. These days almost all boxers make their mistakes and take their losses early during lengthy careers in the amateurs.