*A World Without Ali*

[THE REAL NINJA]

Lets say that Ali never turns pro and examine the changes that would have been made in boxing's history .

[SONNY LISTON]The first thing that comes to mind is who would have taken the title from Sonny Liston ? Liston fought Ali in 64 and Frazier would not be a contender until around 68-70. There were many other good fighters at the time but hardly does anyone stand out as the one to beat Liston .There would have been no need for a Leotis Martin in 70 so lets say he holds onto the title. And even if Liston holds the belt until a match up is set with Frazier many people feel that he could have beat Joe . But with Liston being past his peek and in his late 30's Frazier wins in this version.

[JOE FRAZIER] This time around without Ali being the former undefeated world chmpion in exil.Without the fragmated titles Frazier is known as the legitimate, undisputed,and world recognised champion who is loved and respected by american fans without racial controversy. Joe's confidence would have been much higher without the hurful words coming from Ali and the press . No one beat Frazier in his prime other then Ali and in this story it stays the same . But with the lack of a great challenger he may have become bored and stopped training and lost in a upset or retired as undefeated champion . Lets say he makes it to 1973 and fights Foreman. Without the damage done in his fight with Ali in 71 he has improved confidence and a Tyson like ora to help him out . He makes for a better fight this time around lasting until the 6th round but it's the same result . With no Ali around Frazier gets an immediate rematch but this time is taken out in 4 and soon after retires. 29-2 [25]

[Foreman] Now who is going to beat the big guy ? Without the loss to Ali he may have never fought Jimmy Young. And even if he had he would not have had the emotional damages from the Ali loss holding him back. Larry Holmes would be an option but he would not be a callenger until 78. To top it all off without Ali as a sparring partner for Holmes he may have never became as good or even a boxer at all. No lightheavy would have a chance at beating Foreman. Spinks would have been crushed so that leaves him out . He would have to hold the title form 73-86 there for I can't see Foreman holding onto the title until Tyson comes up . Again we may have a undefeated champion retire. 46-0 [43]

[HOLMES] As I said he may have never been great or even a boxer at all without Ali .

[SPINKS] Who knows really he might have never fought at heavy at all without Holmes around, but lets say he does . Spinks was good enough to beat many of the heavyweights at the time and did .But being that he was at the end of his career and very inactive in real life I wonder what would have changed . If he would have become the legit undisputed heavyweight champion he may have fought more often but something tells me that he would have been beaten by one of the Berbicks,Bonecrushers or Pinklons along the way. Same rec

[Tyson era] LOL Contrary to my last line many of the fighters that Tyson faced could have been much different as many of them were tall 6'3 + fighters that used styles similar to that of Ali. Without Ali's impact on boxing many of them may have used a completely different style making them much better or worse . Tyson would have never had Holmes and Spinks to build his reputation on . But would have the negative examples set by his hero's Liston and Foreman to build his image on . We may never see the 'nice guy' Tyson from the early 80's as he will immediently become the thug we have known in the past years . Buster Dougles is taken out due to Tyson looking to build his tarnished reputation he will seek a repected challenger.In 1990 He will find one in crusierweight champion Evander Holyfield. This backfires as a young Holyfield beats Tyson in a very hard battle on points . It will become known as the fight of the century by fans. Soon after Tyson goes to prison just as he did in real life .incomplete rec.

[HOLYFIELD] Holyfield is well respected as the first good guy champion in many years . He is a major media star but just as Tyson before him he has no real challengers. Again there is no Holmes or Foreman who has no reason to come out of retirement. Razor Ruddock without having to fight Tyson becomes number one contender. Holyfield Vs Ruddock, This takes the place of Holyfield vs Holmes . Holyfield wins on points but goes down hard two times in the fight. Holyfield shows great heart by fighting back but this is seen by many as a Holyfield weakness and the press says his time is just about up. A few good showings in tune up fights and it's time for Rid****. Now Bowe was another fighter who Ali had a major impact on but with the difference in styles he would have been the same . Same story here Bowe beats Holyfield in the first match but Holyfield regains the very next year. During that time Lennox Lewis has defeated Ruddock and Michael Morrer to become the number one . Holyfield vs Lewis is a great fight and a battle of wills but Holyfield comes up short in the end. This time around Evander feels that he has nothing to prove and retires .

[LEWIS] Again stealing a great part of boxing history from us Just as in real life Rid**** Bowe realized his time was up after his fight with Andrew Golota and never fights Lewis. Maybe Oliver McCall gets a shot at him maybe not . Either way whether it be MCcall or Hasim Rahman someone will get the lucky punch in .I think he would have became bored with boxing much sooner and retired but his competitiveness would have him regain the title just as he did in real life . My guess is that Lewis being the dominate champion beating the likes of Frank Bruno,Andrew Golota and Shannon Briggs retires in 2002 after he beats a come backing Mike Tyson.

AND THE REST IS HISTORY.

[GEOFFHAYES]

Good work son.

[americanspirit]

Interesting stuff, Ninja.

Good thread.

[THE REAL NINJA]

Cont

Muhammad Ali himself would have been changed significantly. If he had never became a boxer whos to say that he would have ever became known as Muhammad Ali . Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr. may have never had the opportunity to meet Malcolm X and there for never became a alliance of Elijah Muhammad and the Nation of Islam. This could have been a major change for the political power of black ******s and african americans alike as the champion boxers of the time had adapted a more white man frendly persona. They would now lack the fighting hero in which Ali represented. Cassius Clay would have possibilly been drafted into the army but without having a famous face and name would the US government go threw the trouble of reclassifing him from 1-Y{not qualified} March 26,1964 to 1-A {qualified} Febuary 17th 1966 after Ali requested religious deferment . No matter if his sole refusal was purly based on religion or not in this world he is in big trouble . If he goes he will not have the advantage of fame which in real life he would have been used in Vietnam as moral support much like Joe Louis and other were in World War 2 .

He could have possibly ran to Canada. But i'm not so sure he could afford the move . His only realistic option would have been to go to war . It troubles me to imagine his fate from there on out . If he makes it out of the war depending on his time of duty he may turn pro in the need of money . Without the training of Angelo Dundee and great knowledge he received from sparring with such greats as Archie Moore. His advanced age never gives him the chance to become the boxer we know and love . In this reality Cassius Marcellus Clay only becomes a average boxer never to be known.

[Njord777]

Muhammad Ali himself would have been changed significantly. If he had never became a boxer whos to say that he would have ever became known as Muhammad Ali . Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr. may have never had the opportunity to meet Malcolm X and there for never became a alliance of Elijah Muhammad and the Nation of Islam. This could have been a major change for the political power of black ******s and african americans alike as the champion boxers of the time had adapted a more white man frendly persona. They would now lack the fighting hero in which Ali represented. Cassius Clay would have possibilly been drafted into the army but without having a famous face and name would the US government go threw the trouble of reclassifing him from 1-Y{not qualified} March 26,1964 to 1-A {qualified} Febuary 17th 1966 after Ali requested religious deferment . No matter if his sole refusal was purly based on religion or not in this world he is in big trouble . If he goes he will not have the advantage of fame which in real life he would have been used in Vietnam as moral support much like Joe Louis and other were in World War 2 .

He could have possibly ran to Canada. But i'm not so sure he could afford the move . His only realistic option would have been to go to war . It troubles me to imagine his fate from there on out . If he makes it out of the war depending on his time of duty he may turn pro in the need of money . Without the training of Angelo Dundee and great knowledge he received from sparring with such greats as Archie Moore. His advanced age naver gives him the chance to become the boxer we know and love . In this reality Cassius Marcellus Clay only becomes a average boxer never to be known.

Creative, interesting, well thought out thread. Kudos.

[THE REAL NINJA]

Also note that Rudy Clay aka Rahman Ali, Muhammad's brother who was 14-3[7] as a pro may have kept fighting . If he had reached a small deal of success how would a returning home from war Cassius react ? Muhammad would be the same person with the same competitive mind set and may feel bitter that his brother has taken his place as the athlete .The emotional impact of war could have changed Ali's personality far beyond what we can conceive . Furthermore the physical stress of war may have accelerated the symptoms and effect of Parkinson's disease . With this sudden new found morality and possible fear of mortality he may have led himself to much conflict . A falling out with Rudy may ensue based on jealousy . Now i'm not sure Rudy would have ever became a great fighter or even champion but when you are looking at someone who is doing something that you want to do and know you could do it better it always seems to lead to anger . I imagine they would reconcile but the damage was done .................................................. .........................................[LAILA ALI] First of all she might have never even been born due in fact that Muhmmad met her mother Veronica Porsche during the rumble in the jungle . Even if she had been born she would not be known as Ali and may have never became a boxer unless she had picked up after her uncle or if Muhaamad became a boxer later in life as I said before . Woman's boxing may not even exist today being that if there was no Muhammad Ali in 60-80 then boxing would have fell in popularity far past what we complain about today . If woman's boxing does exist then we are in search of the cornerstone the face of womans boxing that Laila represents today. It could have became Ann Wolfe. With Laila out of this reality Jackie Frazier would have never became a boxer being that there would be no reason to .

[K-DOGG]

Lets say that Ali never turns pro and examine the changes that would have been made in boxing's history .

[SONNY LISTON]The first thing that comes to mind is who would have taken the title from Sonny Liston ? Liston fought Ali in 64 and Frazier would not be a contender until around 68-70. There were many other good fighters at the time but hardly does anyone stand out as the one to beat Liston .There would have been no need for a Leotis Martin in 70 so lets say he holds onto the title. And even if Liston holds the belt until a match up is set with Frazier many people feel that he could have beat Joe . But with Liston being past his peek and in his late 30's Frazier wins in this version.

[JOE FRAZIER] This time around without Ali being the former undefeated world chmpion in exil.Without the fragmated titles Frazier is known as the legitimate, undisputed,and world recognised champion who is loved and respected by american fans without racial controversy. Joe's confidence would have been much higher without the hurful words coming from Ali and the press . No one beat Frazier in his prime other then Ali and in this story it stays the same . But with the lack of a great challenger he may have become bored and stopped training and lost in a upset or retired as undefeated champion . Lets say he makes it to 1973 and fights Foreman. Without the damage done in his fight with Ali in 71 he has improved confidence and a Tyson like ora to help him out . He makes for a better fight this time around lasting until the 6th round but it's the same result . With no Ali around Frazier gets an immediate rematch but this time is taken out in 4 and soon after retires. 29-2 [25]

[Foreman] Now who is going to beat the big guy ? Without the loss to Ali he may have never fought Jimmy Young. And even if he had he would not have had the emotional damages from the Ali loss holding him back. Larry Holmes would be an option but he would not be a callenger until 78. To top it all off without Ali as a sparring partner for Holmes he may have never became as good or even a boxer at all. No lightheavy would have a chance at beating Foreman. Spinks would have been crushed so that leaves him out . He would have to hold the title form 73-86 there for I can't see Foreman holding onto the title until Tyson comes up . Again we may have a undefeated champion retire. 46-0 [43]

[HOLMES] As I said he may have never been great or even a boxer at all without Ali .

[SPINKS] Who knows really he might have never fought at heavy at all without Holmes around, but lets say he does . Spinks was good enough to beat many of the heavyweights at the time and did .But being that he was at the end of his career and very inactive in real life I wonder what would have changed . If he would have become the legit undisputed heavyweight champion he may have fought more often but something tells me that he would have been beaten by one of the Berbicks,Bonecrushers or Pinklons along the way. Same rec

[Tyson era] LOL Contrary to my last line many of the fighters that Tyson faced could have been much different as many of them were tall 6'3 + fighters that used styles similar to that of Ali. Without Ali's impact on boxing many of them may have used a completely different style making them much better or worse . Tyson would have never had Holmes and Spinks to build his reputation on . But would have the negative examples set by his hero's Liston and Foreman to build his image on . We may never see the 'nice guy' Tyson from the early 80's as he will immediently become the thug we have known in the past years . Buster Dougles is taken out due to Tyson looking to build his tarnished reputation he will seek a repected challenger.In 1990 He will find one in crusierweight champion Evander Holyfield. This backfires as a young Holyfield beats Tyson in a very hard battle on points . It will become known as the fight of the century by fans. Soon after Tyson goes to prison just as he did in real life .incomplete rec.

[HOLYFIELD] Holyfield is well respected as the first good guy champion in many years . He is a major media star but just as Tyson before him he has no real challengers. Again there is no Holmes or Foreman who has no reason to come out of retirement. Razor Ruddock without having to fight Tyson becomes number one contender. Holyfield Vs Ruddock, This takes the place of Holyfield vs Holmes . Holyfield wins on points but goes down hard two times in the fight. Holyfield shows great heart by fighting back but this is seen by many as a Holyfield weakness and the press says his time is just about up. A few good showings in tune up fights and it's time for Rid****. Now Bowe was another fighter who Ali had a major impact on but with the difference in styles he would have been the same . Same story here Bowe beats Holyfield in the first match but Holyfield regains the very next year. During that time Lennox Lewis has defeated Ruddock and Michael Morrer to become the number one . Holyfield vs Lewis is a great fight and a battle of wills but Holyfield comes up short in the end. This time around Evander feels that he has nothing to prove and retires .

[LEWIS] Again stealing a great part of boxing history from us Just as in real life Rid**** Bowe realized his time was up after his fight with Andrew Golota and never fights Lewis. Maybe Oliver McCall gets a shot at him maybe not . Either way whether it be MCcall or Hasim Rahman someone will get the lucky punch in .I think he would have became bored with boxing much sooner and retired but his competitiveness would have him regain the title just as he did in real life . My guess is that Lewis being the dominate champion beating the likes of Frank Bruno,Andrew Golota and Shannon Briggs retires in 2002 after he beats a come backing Mike Tyson.

AND THE REST IS HISTORY.

Fascinating. I doubt it would have gone down quite like that; but that's as good of an estimate of the workings of the "no-Ali Universe" as any.

I think you give Foreman way too much credit. He was imposing and powerful; but he was not unbeatable. Sooner or later, somebody with heart, skill, and a chin would get him, IMO. Also, while your point is taken concerning Ali's influence on Holmes, I like to think that a fighter who becomes great takes that greatness from within. Ali's style, while influential, was not truly original as is evidenced by Gene Tunney's climb to the top back in 1926. However, you are probably right in that Holmes would be less Ali-esque in his approach; but since he was a better technical boxer than Ali ever was, I see no reason to deny him his place in history just because Cassius Jr. went on to become a sign painter or something.

I think a more relevant effect of a world with Ali-the-boxer would be the salaries sports stars enjoy today. Remeber, before Ali, boxers and most other athletes had to rely on a second job because the "millions" weren't there. It was only after Ali and Frazier pulled down 2.5 big ones, followed by Ali and Foreman pulling in 5 million a piece that the salaries for sports stars started to explode. Would Joe Namath have been as well paid for his accomplishments without Ali setting the stage for boisterous athletes?

Just something to think about.


Very insightful view, my friend.

[THE REAL NINJA]

Fascinating. I doubt it would have gone down quite like that; but that's as good of an estimate of the workings of the "no-Ali Universe" as any.

I think you give Foreman way too much credit. He was imposing and powerful; but he was not unbeatable. Sooner or later, somebody with heart, skill, and a chin would get him, IMO. Also, while your point is taken concerning Ali's influence on Holmes, I like to think that a fighter who becomes great takes that greatness from within. Ali's style, while influential, was not truly original as is evidenced by Gene Tunney's climb to the top back in 1926. However, you are probably right in that Holmes would be less Ali-esque in his approach; but since he was a better technical boxer than Ali ever was, I see no reason to deny him his place in history just because Cassius Jr. went on to become a sign painter or something.

I think a more relevant effect of a world with Ali-the-boxer would be the salaries sports stars enjoy today. Remeber, before Ali, boxers and most other athletes had to rely on a second job because the "millions" weren't there. It was only after Ali and Frazier pulled down 2.5 big ones, followed by Ali and Foreman pulling in 5 million a piece that the salaries for sports stars started to explode. Would Joe Namath have been as well paid for his accomplishments without Ali setting the stage for boisterous athletes?

Just something to think about.


Very insightful view, my friend.

My idea on Holmes is more based on him not having the Ali name to help him get fights. Without Holmes being Ali's sparring partner people may not have found him to be as intresting and opponents could have easily avoided fighting him . The again Roy Williams was an Ali sparring partner and it hurt his career. Other fighters heard how well he did with Ali and didn't want to take the chance until Holmes himself gave him a shot . Foreman i'm just giving benefit of the doubt . It would be easy to see him become even more over confident then he was vs Ali and stop training then lose Vs an underdog.