Greatest fighters to never win a title

[Rusty Tromboni]

Once again, by modern standards he, in what i consider his prime, was not a heavyweight.

From 05-12 his weight moved around mostly in the 170s to the 180s. The fighters you mentioned all weighed in over 200 during their best years. Thus, all heavies.

Please note, i never claimed Langford wasnt a heavyweight. Just that his best years were fought at a weight that is on par with Light heavyweight.

Its akin to roy jones jr, he fought at heavyweight, he was an all time great. But i dont consider him an all time great heavyweight. On a relative scale to his prime weight class i think most would consider him better than tua, but the best version of rjj would lose in real life to the best version of tua. Because the best version of tua is a 245 lb modern heavyweight, and the best version of jones is 168 lbs. Even as heavy, jones doesnt beat tua, because he wasnt great at that class

Yeah, I think if Light Heavyweight existed when he out-grew Middleweight he would have gone down as one of the greatest champions of all-time. Again, I think his style and the quality of competition meant that the bigger he came in, the better he did. But it would clearly be a mismatch pairing him against a roided out body builder like Tua. But I cannot believe that Tua would beat Langford IF they were contemporaries.

There you go again being an idiot and a half. Jab provided evidence and you provide none, and you never have provided one iota of proof for your opinions. Idiot

Why do you like using words outside your vocabulary range?

[DeeMoney]

Yeah, I think if Light Heavyweight existed when he out-grew Middleweight he would have gone down as one of the greatest champions of all-time. Again, I think his style and the quality of competition meant that the bigger he came in, the better he did. But it would clearly be a mismatch pairing him against a roided out body builder like Tua. But I cannot believe that Tua would beat Langford IF they were contemporaries.



Why do you like using words outside your vocabulary range?

Fair enough, I actually really like Langford too, I think your IF they were contemporaries is a key point (as you bolded)

[JAB5239]

Yeah, I think if Light Heavyweight existed when he out-grew Middleweight he would have gone down as one of the greatest champions of all-time.

Again showing you no nothing about boxing. The light heavyweight division HAD been around when Langford outgrew middleweight. He was avoided and never given his rightful opportunity to fight for that title.

[Willie Pep 229]

Again showing you no nothing about boxing. The light heavyweight division HAD been around when Langford outgrew middleweight. He was avoided and never given his rightful opportunity to fight for that title.

He had no right to fight for that title, it was the white title, he could have fought for the colored title. Did he?

Plessy vs. Ferguson 1896 drew the 'color line' in boxing as it did for all things across America. Making it easy not only to segregate Black fighters out of title shots, but making it legal as well.

It is one of those twisted historical realities. Black fighters where much better off before 1896; George Dixon was allowed to win the featherweight title from a white man in 1892 as part of the Carnival of Champions (Sullivan-Corbett; New Orleans) -- He then held the title until 1900, fighting in 15 different championship bouts, but when he finally lost his title to Terrible Terry in 1900 they squeezed him out of the picture (no rematch) and although he fought until 1912 he never got near a title fight again.

I am just screwing with you Jab, I understand what you are saying.

It's too bad the NAACP pushed that case forward on appeal it sent Black fighters (all Black people) reeling backwards.

Maybe the greatest racist dirty trick ever played, but legally speaking he had his civil right . . . to a colored title.

[QueensburyRules]

He had no right to fight for that title, it was the white title, he could have fought for the colored title. Did he?

Plessy vs. Ferguson 1896 drew the 'color line' in boxing as it did for all things across America. Making it easy not only to segregate Black fighters out of title shots, but making it legal as well.

It is one of those twisted historical realities. Black fighters where much better off before 1896; George Dixon was allowed to win the featherweight title from a white man in 1892 as part of the Carnival of Champions (Sullivan-Corbett; New Orleans) -- He then held the title until 1900, fighting in 15 different championship bouts, but when he finally lost his title to Terrible Terry in 1900 they squeezed him out of the picture (no rematch) and although he fought until 1912 he never got near a title fight again.

I am just screwing with you Jab, I understand what you are saying.

It's too bad the NAACP pushed that case forward on appeal it sent Black fighters (all Black people) reeling backwards.

Maybe the greatest racist dirty trick ever played, but legally speaking he had his civil right . . . to a colored title.

- -Not sure exactly what you're saying, but black sub heavies were in the mix from Dixon forward.

[Willie Pep 229]

- -Not sure exactly what you're saying, but black sub heavies were in the mix from Dixon forward.

Just giving Jab a hard time because he gives white champions from that era a hard time about their legacy. You know the on going argument, Whose fault was the duck? society or the fighter.

But you think that Black fighters (lower weights) were given fair shots at the titles available, post 1900?

I realize Gans was in the mix and quite popular but were there really that many others?

[QueensburyRules]

Just giving Jab a hard time because he gives white champions from that era a hard time about their legacy. You know the on going argument, Whose fault was the duck? society or the fighter.

But you think that Black fighters (lower weights) were given fair shots at the titles available, post 1900?

I realize Gans was in the mix and quite popular but were there really that many others?

- -Sam Langford fought everyone, and save for Paris 1913 when he won the Fench sanction heavy title, other than the colored title, he never fought for a regular title.

When he fought Gunboat Smith in his own home town where he'd fought other white fighters, the new race baiting politics tried to kill the fight where the local sheriff stood up citing Constitutional law said he arrest anyone trying to break that law by preventing that fight.

Put it this way, MLB formed in 1903 with an unwritten agreement that no blacks could play in their leagues.

Meanwhile in boxing in every weight class had bukos of mixed bouts before and after MLB. See JJJeffries as exhibit #1.

[Willie Pep 229]

- -Sam Langford fought everyone, and save for Paris 1913 when he won the Fench sanction heavy title, other than the colored title, he never fought for a regular title.

When he fought Gunboat Smith in his own home town where he'd fought other white fighters, the new race baiting politics tried to kill the fight where the local sheriff stood up citing Constitutional law said he arrest anyone trying to break that law by preventing that fight.

Put it this way, MLB formed in 1903 with an unwritten agreement that no blacks could play in their leagues.

Meanwhile in boxing in every weight class had bukos of mixed bouts before and after MLB. See JJJeffries as exhibit #1.

Absolutely -- but I was referring to title fights (white held titles) My point being that Black fighters who made names for themselves before the Plessy decision where in a better position than those who tried to get title shots afterwards.

Speaking of Langford, he got to go six rounds with Ketchel, but (he claimed later) he was told that the MW title would change hands under no conditions and not to try for a KO.

Lots of mixed bouts sure, but how many jurisdictions (States) where willing to recognize a Black champion?

I just have to feel that once Plessy legalized segregation it had to make it easier for the race baiters (Anti-mixed fights Sates and Commissions).

Nice story about the sheriff (really, no sarcasm); there were many "Jack Mormons" around, who were willing to take on the bigots. But in the big picture the bigots won, and the Plessy decision empowered them.

P.S. Here's the other side, one night at MSG Gans was pounding on some Irish kid, when the referee (Charley White) stopped the fight in Gans' favor, he ended up in hospital; he got attacked.

[QueensburyRules]

Absolutely -- but I was referring to title fights (white held titles) My point being that Black fighters who made names for themselves before the Plessy decision where in a better position than those who tried to get title shots afterwards.

Speaking of Langford, he got to go six rounds with Ketchel, but (he claimed later) he was told that the MW title would change hands under no conditions and not to try for a KO.

Lots of mixed bouts sure, but how many jurisdictions (States) where willing to recognize a Black champion?

I just have to feel that once Plessy legalized segregation it had to make it easier for the race baiters (Anti-mixed fights Sates and Commissions).

Nice story about the sheriff (really, no sarcasm); there were many "Jack Mormons" around, who were willing to take on the bigots. But in the big picture the bigots won, and the Plessy decision empowered them.

P.S. Here's the other side, one night at MSG Gans was pounding on some Irish kid, when the referee (Charley White) stopped the fight in Gans' favor, he ended up in hospital; he got attacked.

- -Guess what I'm saying with boxing being largely an unregulated sport, it went on as always regardless of political interference.

Ketchel/Sam was supposed to be a teaser to the full bout that never happened because Ketchel was murdered. As to the title, I can't say.

[JAB5239]

Just giving Jab a hard time because he gives white champions from that era a hard time about their legacy. You know the on going argument, Whose fault was the duck? society or the fighter.

But you think that Black fighters (lower weights) were given fair shots at the titles available, post 1900?

I realize Gans was in the mix and quite popular but were there really that many others?

I'm just standing up for the social injustices of the times back then. I'm a huge fan of many white fighters from bygone era's. Particularly B. Leonard, Greb, Ross, Canzoneri and many others. And while I argue against many things about Tunney, Dempsey and even Jim Jefferies, I admire them all as fighters.