Roberto Duran vs. Henry Armstrong

[Rusty Tromboni]

The level of competition is only one indicator. It is a good one for sure, but only one. we also have to look at the qualities of a fighter and how they translate. What jumps out at me is when I look at rare qualities compared to different weight classes.

Try to name power punchers at lightweight. Try to find lightweight fighters who could be a threat to ko another great fighter, and not by attrition. Now try to imagine which fighters you come up with could ko Armstrong as a lightweight. Try to figure out who on that list could outwork Armstrong.

To beat Armstrong at 135 you have to be able to keep him off you, your punch has to affect him. i don't see a guy at that weight capable of doing so. Welter is different because more weight, more benefit to the puncher. but at 135? My freakin wife, who has her figure, is not heavy, is practically 135!

Let me take it a step farther. Take an athlete with more muscle relative to his frame. i mean if I am bigger shouldn't my muscles allow me to run as well as a marathon runner who has the same amount of muscle per his frame? It does not work that way does it? At lower weights power translates differently. Because of his style Armstrong would have to lose by being outpointed. Nobody gonna do that either that I can see.

Zivic wasn't a big puncher. He was an attrition fighter.

The only Middleweight he beat was LaMotta - by out-boxing him.

(Duran, conversely, DID carry his power up to Middleweight. ANd the way he hid his right uppercut was a thing of beauty. Not to mention his ability to out-grapple Armstrong, if ever Hank did bore in.)


It's funny that before you were referring to Hank's style as the reason his performances fell off. But now style doesn't matter? According to Boxing Folklore, a Slugger is your best bet for beating a Swarmer (Foreman vs. Frazier). Shouldn't you be telling me that Armstrong needs to AVOID sluggers?

And I really don't know what you are basing your assertion on. The only big puncher he faced Pre-Zivic was Jenkins. We have no footage of Jenkins, but he's pretty much Boxing's consummate "Coulda Been/Never Was". He showed a lot of promise, but his career derailed before he even had the chance to become a "Has Been". Mike McCallum bombing out Julian Jackson doesn't convince me he'd handle Hagler or Monzon's power, let alone Robinson or Golovkin's. Just the same, I don't think Armstrong's win over Jenkins should be further extrapolated.

If you're looking for big punchers as candidates to stop Armstrong in his tracks, look no further than Canzoneri (the man considered P4P King when Hank was active) and McLarnin (the king of the Head Hunters). Aside from the available footage proving that they could stop bigger men w/ a single punch(men MUCH better than Zivic and Arizmendi), they both handled Ambers better than Armstrong did. And they can actually say that they beat the PRIME VERSION of Ross.

It almost feels like you're inviting me to find ways to tear down Armstrong's legacy.

[bklynboy]

U have Alzheimers?

Lomachenko couldn't beat Salido but he's going to beat Henry Armstrong?

Lomo shouldn't have to live down Salido. That was his 2 pro fight. Saldio was a decent, experienced fighter with like 10+ champtionship fights and was personally insulted that Lomo was taking him on in his second fight. Salido had been through the wars; chose to give up his belt instead of cutting weight; and used all the tricks in the book against Lomo.

Did Lomo come up to 12 rounds too quickly. Yes he did. You could see in the first round that he was trying to save energy.

I'm not saying that Lomo would beat Hank at either featherweight of lightweight or Duran at lightweight but that doesn't matter Lomo is fantastic. Nobody that I know has fought better opposition than Lomo has in his first 15 fights. Every single one of his fights was for a belt. In comparison to old timers it means that each of his fights was someone in the TOP 10 of the division.

I mean he dominated Nicholas Walters in like his 8th or 9th fight. That's when I knew he was truly for real. He blew by a very good Featherweight, made it look easy.

[QueensburyRules]

Lomo shouldn't have to live down Salido. That was his 2 pro fight. Saldio was a decent, experienced fighter with like 10+ champtionship fights and was personally insulted that Lomo was taking him on in his second fight. Salido had been through the wars; chose to give up his belt instead of cutting weight; and used all the tricks in the book against Lomo.

Did Lomo come up to 12 rounds too quickly. Yes he did. You could see in the first round that he was trying to save energy.

I'm not saying that Lomo would beat Hank at either featherweight of lightweight or Duran at lightweight but that doesn't matter Lomo is fantastic. Nobody that I know has fought better opposition than Lomo has in his first 15 fights. Every single one of his fights was for a belt. In comparison to old timers it means that each of his fights was someone in the TOP 10 of the division.

I mean he dominated Nicholas Walters in like his 8th or 9th fight. That's when I knew he was truly for real. He blew by a very good Featherweight, made it look easy.

Laurance Cole long one of the p4p dirtiest of his era allowed dozens of butts, low blows, hitting on the break, ect, but was visibly melting anytime Loma cracked him such that Cole pulled him off everytime Loma was ready to knock him out.

Both Cole and Salido were not only deliberately and sequentially unprofessional, but they shoulda served a 3 yr suspension, but of course they were only doing what their masters told them to do...only in boxing!!!

[billeau2]

Zivic wasn't a big puncher. He was an attrition fighter.

The only Middleweight he beat was LaMotta - by out-boxing him.

(Duran, conversely, DID carry his power up to Middleweight. ANd the way he hid his right uppercut was a thing of beauty. Not to mention his ability to out-grapple Armstrong, if ever Hank did bore in.)


It's funny that before you were referring to Hank's style as the reason his performances fell off. But now style doesn't matter? According to Boxing Folklore, a Slugger is your best bet for beating a Swarmer (Foreman vs. Frazier). Shouldn't you be telling me that Armstrong needs to AVOID sluggers?

And I really don't know what you are basing your assertion on. The only big puncher he faced Pre-Zivic was Jenkins. We have no footage of Jenkins, but he's pretty much Boxing's consummate "Coulda Been/Never Was". He showed a lot of promise, but his career derailed before he even had the chance to become a "Has Been". Mike McCallum bombing out Julian Jackson doesn't convince me he'd handle Hagler or Monzon's power, let alone Robinson or Golovkin's. Just the same, I don't think Armstrong's win over Jenkins should be further extrapolated.

If you're looking for big punchers as candidates to stop Armstrong in his tracks, look no further than Canzoneri (the man considered P4P King when Hank was active) and McLarnin (the king of the Head Hunters). Aside from the available footage proving that they could stop bigger men w/ a single punch(men MUCH better than Zivic and Arizmendi), they both handled Ambers better than Armstrong did. And they can actually say that they beat the PRIME VERSION of Ross.

It almost feels like you're inviting me to find ways to tear down Armstrong's legacy.

Its never a bad thing to have skeptascism regarding any legacy so in a sense I guess I am inviting you to tear down. You keep referring to higher weight classes, and guys who could punch up. I don't dispute that assertion. Let me say this again because you may misunderstand this: At a higher weight punchers could be a threat to Armstrong, starting at Welter and up through Middle. Its a different ballgame!

I am talking at lightweight, around 135. And the bone of my contention is not Armstrong being a big puncher, it is his ability to not be punched out AT THAT WEIGHT... SPECIFICALLY @135 and below.

I never wanted to make the case that Armstrong fell off Rusty. How can a guy who fought that long "fall off?" It was just a statement. Your pinning too much to it frankly. Armstrong fought for years.

Regarding whom Hank should avoid: Uppercuts. I think a great boxer punchers, But they have to fight Hank at a weight where power translates better: Welter, or Middle. I posted a film detailing weaknesses that Armstrong had and I don't know if I buy the left hook so much, the angle is all wrong. To me you would want to have a very accurate jab, an uppercut, and be able to have the strength to keep your ground under you, hence...the need to fight Armstrong at welter at least, to beat him up.

Think of it this way: how much stronger is a guy who weighs 150 and can bench press 300 pounds, than a guy 200 pounds who can bench the same weight? Now think of real usable strength: Being pushed back on your heels, snapping a pole arm jab into someone's face... If that someone is Hank, at 135 you will be facing a very strong bull and your punches and body have much less weight to use against him. At 155 ish and above, even slightly below, your weight becomes more of a factor when you snap that jab with weight front foot, when you grapple for position, etc.

Rusty this is straight out of your playbook...aren't you the one who places a premium on strength vis a vis size?

[Anthony342]

Does that mean there 100 lightweights that you know can beat Duran? Kindly, indulge me of just five lightweights that can beat Armstrong? I know of only one that can beat both Armstrong and Duran. Peace.

Who? Benny Leonard?

[QueensburyRules]

Who? Benny Leonard?

- -Ace in the hole! Benny!!!

[The Old LefHook]

Laurance Cole long one of the p4p dirtiest of his era allowed dozens of butts, low blows, hitting on the break, ect, but was visibly melting anytime Loma cracked him such that Cole pulled him off everytime Loma was ready to knock him out.

Both Cole and Salido were not only deliberately and sequentially unprofessional, but they shoulda served a 3 yr suspension, but of course they were only doing what their masters told them to do...only in boxing!!!

Dirtbag Cole is in the business of selling boxers insurance. If that is not conflict of interest, tell me what is.

[DeeMoney]

I'm probably a bigger Armstrong fan than most who have posted so far; but this seems like a bad style matchup for Hank.

I've always felt Armstrong's greatest strength is his ability to impose his style and his will on opponents. And while I'd like his style vs the more slick, stick and move guys that are at the top of the all time lightweight division (Leonard, Pea) I don't like it here. I think Duran stands his ground, chews up Henry, and matches him rough house on the inside; except Duran's defense is good enough that he gives more than he gets on his way to the W.

That being written, these are both ATGs so its not as if one or the other would beat the other 5 times out of 5.
Armstrong's got superhuman stamina and is tough as they come; I mean the dude went 27-0 in 1937. But I'd favor Duran to win more often than not here.

[QueensburyRules]

I'm probably a bigger Armstrong fan than most who have posted so far; but this seems like a bad style matchup for Hank.

I've always felt Armstrong's greatest strength is his ability to impose his style and his will on opponents. And while I'd like his style vs the more slick, stick and move guys that are at the top of the all time lightweight division (Leonard, Pea) I don't like it here. I think Duran stands his ground, chews up Henry, and matches him rough house on the inside; except Duran's defense is good enough that he gives more than he gets on his way to the W.

That being written, these are both ATGs so its not as if one or the other would beat the other 5 times out of 5.
Armstrong's got superhuman stamina and is tough as they come; I mean the dude went 27-0 in 1937. But I'd favor Duran to win more often than not here.

- -A fair summation, but prime Ray Leonard could pick him off for a KO as I feel most great sluggers could.

Against Peashooter, pea could only monkey around so long before succumbing to Hank pressure for a mauling but survives the distance.

Vs lightweight Moneyfraud, he never looked good against pressure fighters and he can't KO Hank, but he can have Bayliss or Cortez pull off Hank everytime he's on top of Fraud to pocket the prefilled out cards and the posted dated TUE by Tygart and Vegas commish.

[The Old LefHook]

It is hard to weigh in on the topic when I do not know enough about Armstrong. However, it is easy to see that any strict referee is going to kill his chances against most great fighters. The man fought with his head, and easily out Holyfielded Holyfield. I have not seen anyone yet I thought had much chance against a peak Duran at lightweight, Armstrong included.

Hank has one thing going for him--mythic matchups are fought under rules and conditions of the older fighter. Hank may get to keep his dirty fighting after all. But I doubt if it will help him much. What is that little tyke going to do, make Duran say no mas again?