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    The Top 20 All-Time Greatest P4P List

    This is my top 20 list, which will remain fluid, that way adjustments can be made over time.

    1- Ray Robinson

    2- Willie Pep

    3- Archie Moore

    4- Ezzard Charles

    5- Roberto Duran

    6- Harry Greb

    7- Manny Pacquiao

    8- Barney Ross

    9- Benny Leonard

    10- Sam Langford

    11- Mickey Walker

    12- Henry Armstrong

    13- Ike Williams

    14- Jake LaMotta

    15- Jack Dempsey

    16- Beau Jack

    17- Tony Canzoneri

    18- Ray Leonard

    19- Marco Antonio Barrera

    20- Emile Griffith

    Plenty of honorable mentions who can easily be rotated on or off the list. In no particular order:

    Jose Napoles
    Pernell Whitaker
    Julio Cesar Chavez Sr
    Michael Spinks
    Sammy Angott
    Joe Louis
    Jimmy McLarnin
    Joe Gans
    Charley Burley
    Sandy Saddler
    Holman Williams
    Gene Tunney

    Post up your lists!
    Last edited by GhostofDempsey; 01-18-2023, 10:34 PM.

    #2
    These lists are tough. Ray Leonard is too low, in my view. Langford, Walker and Greb are way too high.

    And I always wonder why Moore should be ranked over a guy that beat him three times. But people continue to do this.

    Robinson at #1 is pretty much a given. After that, nobody agrees on much!
    mrbig1 mrbig1 dreamroom dreamroom like this.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Joe Beamish View Post
      These lists are tough. Ray Leonard is too low, in my view. Langford, Walker and Greb are way too high.

      And I always wonder why Moore should be ranked over a guy that beat him three times. But people continue to do this.

      Robinson at #1 is pretty much a given. After that, nobody agrees on much!
      Lists are always going to be subjective and up for debate. To shed some light on my selection, I place Moore above Charles because Moore was more durable, had 100 more fights than Charles, and was a more nuanced fighter. Not by a wide margin, but I felt he could make adjustments during a fight just a tad better.

      Leonard’s career was a bit too short, and I felt he had a couple of gift decisions during his career because of his star appeal.

      Walker was competitive from 147 all the way to HW. Same as Langford. Sam was a natural middleweight fighting much larger men. Defeated some of the best names of his era from middleweight to heavyweight.

      Greb also fought all comers. From 160 - 175+. Only man to beat Tunney (on record, outside of the long count fight) and one of two who fought him to a draw. This while blind in one eye.

      Comment


        #4
        MY personal top 20 with honorable mentions:

        1. Sugar Ray Robinson
        2. Harry Greb (he has the best resume I just can’t quite put him #1 due to no film which shouldn’t be right but oh well)
        3. Sam Langford
        4. Henry Armstrong
        5. Ezzard Charles
        6. Roberto Duran
        7. Benny Leonard
        8. Willie Pep
        9. Eder Jofre
        10. Joe Gans
        11. Mickey Walker
        12. Muhammad Ali
        13. Joe Louis
        14. Gene Tunney
        15. Archie Moore
        16. Sugar Ray Leonard
        17. Barney Ross
        18. Tony Canzoneri
        19. Jimmy Wilde
        20. Bob Fitzsimmons

        Honorable: Sandy Saddler, Packey McFarland, Charley Burley, Ike Williams, Holman Williams, Terry McGovern, Pernell Whitaker, Carlos Monzon, Jose Napoles, Carlos Ortiz, Emile Griffith, Marvin Hagler, Luis Rodriguez, Roy Jones, George Dixon, Billy Conn, Evander Holyfield, Thomas Hearns, Manny Pacquaio, Julio Cesar Chavez

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
          Lists are always going to be subjective and up for debate. To shed some light on my selection, I place Moore above Charles because Moore was more durable, had 100 more fights than Charles, and was a more nuanced fighter. Not by a wide margin, but I felt he could make adjustments during a fight just a tad better.

          Leonard’s career was a bit too short, and I felt he had a couple of gift decisions during his career because of his star appeal.

          Walker was competitive from 147 all the way to HW. Same as Langford. Sam was a natural middleweight fighting much larger men. Defeated some of the best names of his era from middleweight to heavyweight.

          Greb also fought all comers. From 160 - 175+. Only man to beat Tunney (on record, outside of the long count fight) and one of two who fought him to a draw. This while blind in one eye.
          Greb also won a newspaper decision over Tunney and one of the “losses” was considered a total ripoff. Greb had Tunney’s number despite being significantly smaller, older and with a lot more mileage.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
            This is my top 20 list, which will remain fluid, that way adjustments can be made over time.

            1- Ray Robinson

            2- Willie Pep

            3- Archie Moore

            4- Ezzard Charles

            5- Harry Greb

            6- Roberto Duran

            7- Henry Armstrong

            8- Barney Ross

            9- Benny Leonard

            10- Sam Langford

            11- Mickey Walker

            12- Manny Pacquiao

            13- Tiger Flowers

            14- Jake LaMotta

            15- Jack Dempsey

            16- Ray Leonard

            17- Emile Griffith

            18- Gene Tunney

            19- Roy Jones Jr

            20- Ike Williams

            Plenty of honorable mentions who can easily be rotated on or off the list. In no particular order:

            Jose Napoles
            Pernell Whitaker
            Julio Cesar Chavez Sr
            Michael Spinks
            Joe Louis
            Jimmy McLarnin
            Joe Gans
            Charley Burley
            Sandy Saddler
            Holman Williams
            Tony Canzoneri

            Post up your lists!
            Decent list I definitely think Ali deserves to 5 or at least honorable mention and Jack Johnson deserves it as well he help revolutionized boxing more than anyone.

            Rate my list and let me know what you think mine is forever changing as well and I put lots of thought in this for years.

            My List is going to be a top 50!
            1 Ray Robinson
            2 Muhammad Ali
            3 Floyd Mayweather
            4 Henry Armstrong
            5 Willie Pep
            6 Jack Johnson
            7 Roberto Duran
            8 Harry Greb
            9 Sugar Ray Leonard
            10 Sam Langford
            11 Benny Leonard
            12 Ezzard Charles
            13 Archie Moore
            14 Gene Tunney
            15 Marvin Hagler
            16 Manny Pacquiao
            17 Roy Jones
            18 Barney Ross
            19 Julio Caesar Chavez
            20 Carlos Monzon
            21 Jimmy Wilde
            22 Jimmy Mclarnin
            23 Joe Gans
            24 Lennox Lewis
            25 George Foreman
            26 Jack Dempsey
            27 Thomas Hearns
            28 Sandy Saddler
            29 Pernell Whitaker
            30 Benard Hopkins
            31 Eder Jofre
            32 Tony Cazoneri
            33 Bob Fittszmens
            34 Evander Holyfield
            35 Joe Fraizer
            36 Jose Napoles
            37 Kid Gavilan
            38 Mickey Walker
            39 Billy Conn
            40 Stanley Ketchel
            41 Mike Tyson
            42 Alexus Arquello
            43 Salvador Sanchez
            44 Andre Ward
            45 Juan Manuel Marquez
            46 Emile Griffith
            47 Eric Morrales/ Marco Antonio Barrera ( couldn't choose lol)
            48 Rocky Marciano
            49 George Dixxon
            50 Charley Burley

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Blue54 View Post
              Decent list I definitely think Ali deserves to 5 or at least honorable mention and Jack Johnson deserves it as well he help revolutionized boxing more than anyone.

              Rate my list and let me know what you think mine is forever changing as well and I put lots of thought in this for years.

              My List is going to be a top 50!
              1 Ray Robinson
              2 Muhammad Ali
              3 Floyd Mayweather
              4 Henry Armstrong
              5 Willie Pep
              6 Jack Johnson
              7 Roberto Duran
              8 Harry Greb
              9 Sugar Ray Leonard
              10 Sam Langford
              11 Benny Leonard
              12 Ezzard Charles
              13 Archie Moore
              14 Gene Tunney
              15 Marvin Hagler
              16 Manny Pacquiao
              17 Roy Jones
              18 Barney Ross
              19 Julio Caesar Chavez
              20 Carlos Monzon
              21 Jimmy Wilde
              22 Jimmy Mclarnin
              23 Joe Gans
              24 Lennox Lewis
              25 George Foreman
              26 Jack Dempsey
              27 Thomas Hearns
              28 Sandy Saddler
              29 Pernell Whitaker
              30 Benard Hopkins
              31 Eder Jofre
              32 Tony Cazoneri
              33 Bob Fittszmens
              34 Evander Holyfield
              35 Joe Fraizer
              36 Jose Napoles
              37 Kid Gavilan
              38 Mickey Walker
              39 Billy Conn
              40 Stanley Ketchel
              41 Mike Tyson
              42 Alexus Arquello
              43 Salvador Sanchez
              44 Andre Ward
              45 Juan Manuel Marquez
              46 Emile Griffith
              47 Eric Morrales/ Marco Antonio Barrera ( couldn't choose lol)
              48 Rocky Marciano
              49 George Dixxon
              50 Charley Burley
              Solid list. Can’t argue with most of those names. The reason I don’t rate Ali or Johnson on a P4P basis, is because I don’t think their success would carry over onto other weigh classes. Ali did too many things wrong from a technical perspective—hands at his sides, leaning back from punches, rope a dope, no body attack, etc., which works against slow heavyweights and smaller opponents but not when all things are equal in lower divisions. Same with Johnson. The key to much of his success was his distinct size advantage over most of his opponents.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by chrisJS View Post
                Greb also won a newspaper decision over Tunney and one of the “losses?was considered a total ripoff. Greb had Tunney’s number despite being significantly smaller, older and with a lot more mileage.
                Yes, and after that robbery against Tunney, he went on to fight Tommy Loughran just two weeks later.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Nice work.

                  Stickied.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
                    This is my top 20 list, which will remain fluid, that way adjustments can be made over time.

                    1- Ray Robinson

                    2- Willie Pep

                    3- Archie Moore

                    4- Ezzard Charles

                    5- Harry Greb

                    6- Roberto Duran

                    7- Henry Armstrong

                    8- Barney Ross

                    9- Benny Leonard

                    10- Sam Langford

                    11- Mickey Walker

                    12- Manny Pacquiao

                    13- Tiger Flowers

                    14- Jake LaMotta

                    15- Jack Dempsey

                    16- Ray Leonard

                    17- Emile Griffith

                    18- Gene Tunney

                    19- Roy Jones Jr

                    20- Ike Williams

                    Plenty of honorable mentions who can easily be rotated on or off the list. In no particular order:

                    Jose Napoles
                    Pernell Whitaker
                    Julio Cesar Chavez Sr
                    Michael Spinks
                    Joe Louis
                    Jimmy McLarnin
                    Joe Gans
                    Charley Burley
                    Sandy Saddler
                    Holman Williams
                    Tony Canzoneri

                    Post up your lists!
                    I like your posts, generally, and respect what you have done here, specifically. But do you mind explaining your rationale? What are your criteria?

                    I just don't get how on a P4P list, a guy who built his career fighting smaller men (and failed miserably when he attempted to take on even the gentlest of bigger men) can top the list.

                    Not that he's not a great fighter, but we have seen better, and have fighters with better records.

                    Also, Moore and Charles aren't even the best fighters ever at their best weight, but get top 5 slots, while the clearly superior Conn gets NO mention.

                    Pacquiao (and his PEDs, which deserve equal mention) - but no Lomachenko? I would love to see the footage of any fighter who looks as good as Loma.

                    And LaMotta and Flowers? Are they even top 15 Middleweights?

                    It's a great list. Better than anything i could do. If you don't wanna explain it, I understand. I am just curious.

                    Comment

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