The Top 20 All-Time Greatest P4P List

[edgarg]

Solid list. Cant argue with most of those names. The reason I dont rate Ali or Johnson on a P4P basis, is because I dont think their success would carry over onto other weigh classes. Ali did too many things wrong from a technical perspectivehands at his sides, leaning back from punches, rope a dope, no body attack, etc., which works against slow heavyweights and smaller opponents but not when all things are equal in lower divisions. Same with Johnson. The key to much of his success was his distinct size advantage over most of his opponents.

Johnson was 6 ft. tall and best weight was 190 lbs. Consider that weighing 240 , untrained, age 37, he went 26 rounds in the broiling sun against Jess Willard who was 6 inches taller. If it had been a 20 rd fight he'd have won by a landslide.

You under rate him very badly. He didn't outsize most of his opponents. Mostly that story is based on his fight with Langford who was about 170 lbs and 4-5 inches shorter, but built like a bull. Johnson toyed with him, KD 2-3 times holding him up a few other times. As several fight historians have said, Johnson could do everything that Ali could, and much better. Also could do things that Ali couldn't.

Nat Fleischer, who saw every heavyweight champ from Jeffries to Ali, up to 1972, said Johnson was better. He also said that Ali did everything wrong, but his foot speed got him out of it. That when he lost his speed he'd be badly punished.
Ahd so it hapened exactly like that. Long before he finally ended his career he was taking huge beatings.

[edgarg]

I like your posts, generally, and respect what you have done here, specifically. But do you mind explaining your rationale? What are your criteria?

I just don't get how on a P4P list, a guy who built his career fighting smaller men (and failed miserably when he attempted to take on even the gentlest of bigger men) can top the list.

Not that he's not a great fighter, but we have seen better, and have fighters with better records.

Also, Moore and Charles aren't even the best fighters ever at their best weight, but get top 5 slots, while the clearly superior Conn gets NO mention.

Pacquiao (and his PEDs, which deserve equal mention) - but no Lomachenko? I would love to see the footage of any fighter who looks as good as Loma.

And LaMotta and Flowers? Are they even top 15 Middleweights?

It's a great list. Better than anything i could do. If you don't wanna explain it, I understand. I am just curious.

Well, Robinson was a welterweight fighting welterweights and middleweights, years before he went up to middleweight. He really made his rep fighting Fullmer, Turpin Basilio Olson Graziano and so forth. ALL champions. He was a difficult bargainer, but fought everybody. Over 200 fights over,100 KOs.

When he fought Joey Maxim, Maxim was NOT gentle, he was clever.At fight night Robinson weighed 157, Maxim weighed 186. His tactics were to LEAN on Robinson. It was 103 degrees in the middle of a record heat wave.. The ref Ruby Goldstein (a top Lightweight in former years) collapsed in rd 10 from heat exhaustion, and was replaced. Robinson was well ahead when he himself collapsed in rd 13. He was delirious. 10 of his 19 losses were when he was over 40 years old.

After the fight he weighed exactly 147. He lost TEN lbs. Maxim also lost about the same amount . but he could afford to. He didn't collapse, but about 40 spectators did, and were carried out.

Joey Maxim also fought everybody. He fought Ezzard Charles 3 times, lost each time. He fought Archie Moore the same amount ,also lost each time. He fought heavyweights and whoever he could. He was a very tough guy.

You denigrate him to no purpose.

[QueensburyRules]

Johnson was 6 ft. tall and best weight was 190 lbs. Consider that weighing 240 , untrained, age 37, he went 26 rounds in the broiling sun against Jess Willard who was 6 inches taller. If it had been a 20 rd fight he'd have won by a landslide.

You under rate him very badly. He didn't outsize most of his opponents. Mostly that story is based on his fight with Langford who was about 170 lbs and 4-5 inches shorter, but built like a bull. Johnson toyed with him, KD 2-3 times holding him up a few other times. As several fight historians have said, Johnson could do everything that Ali could, and much better. Also could do things that Ali couldn't.

Nat Fleischer, who saw every heavyweight champ from Jeffries to Ali, up to 1972, said Johnson was better. He also said that Ali did everything wrong, but his foot speed got him out of it. That when he lost his speed he'd be badly punished.
Ahd so it hapened exactly like that. Long before he finally ended his career he was taking huge beatings.

- - U edgagging on history now, is it?

JJohnson best fight and weight was vs Jeff @208 many years before. He was 225 for Jess and cannot go 26 rounds being untrained. He was 222 vs Moran the fight before and went 15 toe to toe rounds. Before that he was in the teens vs Battling Johnson and Fireman Flynn and looked like shyte.

[GhostofDempsey]

Johnson was 6 ft. tall and best weight was 190 lbs. Consider that weighing 240 , untrained, age 37, he went 26 rounds in the broiling sun against Jess Willard who was 6 inches taller. If it had been a 20 rd fight he'd have won by a landslide.

You under rate him very badly. He didn't outsize most of his opponents. Mostly that story is based on his fight with Langford who was about 170 lbs and 4-5 inches shorter, but built like a bull. Johnson toyed with him, KD 2-3 times holding him up a few other times. As several fight historians have said, Johnson could do everything that Ali could, and much better. Also could do things that Ali couldn't.

Nat Fleischer, who saw every heavyweight champ from Jeffries to Ali, up to 1972, said Johnson was better. He also said that Ali did everything wrong, but his foot speed got him out of it. That when he lost his speed he'd be badly punished.
Ahd so it hapened exactly like that. Long before he finally ended his career he was taking huge beatings.

You sound just like another guy on here who uses the same Johnson argument. He was not 240 for the Willard fight, he was a muscular 225 by most accounts. Langford was not 170 when they fought, and was not the best version of himself either. Neither were Jeannette and McVey. Johnson's best wins were against smaller or washed up opponents.

Ali was technically flawed, but he was fast for a HW, while most of the other HW's were somewhat flat footed and slower. He could get away with using his reflexes when he was still young, but just like Roy Jones, as he got older he could not longer use his reflexes to get out of tight corners, and he didn't make any adjustments except to clinch more as he got older.

[mrbig1]

You sound just like another guy on here who uses the same Johnson argument. He was not 240 for the Willard fight, he was a muscular 225 by most accounts. Langford was not 170 when they fought, and was not the best version of himself either. Neither were Jeannette and McVey. Johnson's best wins were against smaller or washed up opponents.

Ali was technically flawed, but he was fast for a HW, while most of the other HW's were somewhat flat footed and slower. He could get away with using his reflexes when he was still young, but just like Roy Jones, as he got older he could not longer use his reflexes to get out of tight corners, and he didn't make any adjustments except to clinch more as he got older.

I've been saying the same thing for years. his biggest wins were against middleweights. His all time biggest win was vs Jeffries who hasn't fought in 6 years and weigh over 340 pounds. not saying Johnson was not a great champion. But as the saying goes you have to beat the best to be the best. something he did not do.

[Ivich]

I've been saying the same thing for years. his biggest wins were against middleweights. His all time biggest win was vs Jeffries who hasn't fought in 6 years and weigh over 340 pounds. not saying Johnson was not a great champion. But as the saying goes you have to beat the best to be the best. something he did not do.

Johnsons biggest wins apart from beating Burns who held the title were probably;
Denver Ed Martin Colored Champ 203lbs 6ft 3.5in
Sam McVey 204 /220lbs 5 ft 10 in
Joe Jeannette 185.205lbs 5 ft 10.5in
Jim Flynn 188/200lbs 5 ft 9.5in
Klon***e 190/210lbs 6ft
Frank Moran 205lbs 6ft 1 in
Jeffries never scaled 340lbs ,and he was down to weight 9 months before their fight.
Up until Joe Louis Johnson's defenders had the highest average for weight.

[Ivich]

You sound just like another guy on here who uses the same Johnson argument. He was not 240 for the Willard fight, he was a muscular 225 by most accounts. Langford was not 170 when they fought, and was not the best version of himself either. Neither were Jeannette and McVey. Johnson's best wins were against smaller or washed up opponents.

Ali was technically flawed, but he was fast for a HW, while most of the other HW's were somewhat flat footed and slower. He could get away with using his reflexes when he was still young, but just like Roy Jones, as he got older he could not longer use his reflexes to get out of tight corners, and he didn't make any adjustments except to clinch more as he got older.

Nobody know what Langford or Johnson weighed for their fight,the weights given were just guesses.
Johnson had a roll of flab around his middle when he fought Willard and was 17lbs above his best weight of 208lbs,plus he was 37 years old and had not been in top shape since the Jeffries fight. I would agree that none of the black trio were at their best when they faced Johnson,I would also say that neither was he!

[QueensburyRules]

- - Looks like our "new" experts never had a best-

BS can't show the image, so no prob. Link with image shows JJ in fine fettle taking it to Jess in of a sell out Havana Race Track.

[GhostofDempsey]

Nobody know what Langford or Johnson weighed for their fight,the weights given were just guesses.
Johnson had a roll of flab around his middle when he fought Willard and was 17lbs above his best weight of 208lbs,plus he was 37 years old and had not been in top shape since the Jeffries fight. I would agree that none of the black trio were at their best when they faced Johnson,I would also say that neither was he!

Your buddy edgard believes Johnson was at his best at 190. You say 208, but what is almost universally agreed upon is that Johnson was a better version of himself than the other three were of themselves.

[GhostofDempsey]

Johnsons biggest wins apart from beating Burns who held the title were probably;
Denver Ed Martin Colored Champ 203lbs 6ft 3.5in
Sam McVey 204 /220lbs 5 ft 10 in
Joe Jeannette 185.205lbs 5 ft 10.5in
Jim Flynn 188/200lbs 5 ft 9.5in
Klon***e 190/210lbs 6ft
Frank Moran 205lbs 6ft 1 in
Jeffries never scaled 340lbs ,and he was down to weight 9 months before their fight.
Up until Joe Louis Johnson's defenders had the highest average for weight.

Factor in skill to the equation. As discussed many times, Jeannette and McVey were novices when they fought Johnson. McKetrick and Jeannette both claim he was 165 when he fought Johnson. You can actually see the size disparity between Johnson and Flynn in the ring.