Why Does Jack Johnson Get a Pass on Opposition while Marciano Does Not?

[travestyny]

Again this clown quotes the same old article with no writer or author credit. Just an anonymous hit piece. Typical. He is all shook because Johnson was overrated.

LMAO. You fool. I'm not even a fan of Jack Johnson as a boxer, so why would I be "shook." I pay homage to him as the first Black heavyweight champion and for what he endured. Unforgivable Blackness was an incredible documentary.

As for you, stop ducking and dodging what has already been proven.

Monday, November 18, 1918
The Buffalo Commercial Newspaper

Dempsey remained obdurate and Jeannette finally left for his dressing room, the crowd cheering him. Bonds failed to appear,

Friday, September 17, 1926
Honolulu Star-Bulletin

But Instead of Joe Bonds, Joe Jeannette, a giant negro, trained to the minute, was there...

Reading Times from Reading, Pennsylvania
Saturday, September 4, 1926

"Jack Dempsey, will now box six rounds with Joe Bonds," clarioned the announcer.: Dempsey crawled through the ropes. But instead of Joe Bonds, Joe Jeannette, a giant negro, trained to the minute,, was there ready for actlon. . , Kearns waved Dempsey from the ring and ' announced it must be Bonds or nobody. . The Garden - became a - bedlam. Cries of slacker, - cur and coward were rained down on Dempsey's head and he was all but mobbed as he walked back with bowed, head to his dressing room.

Is that enough proof for you?

[ShoulderRoll]

So what? Johnson might as well have fought some random journeymen from nowhere. That's about how good McVea and Jeannette were in those stages. Langford only weighed 156 lbs, didn't even reach the MIDDLEWEIGHT limit.

It's better than not fighting them at all. And I don't see how you can argue otherwise.

[travestyny]

It's better than not fighting them at all. And I don't see how you can argue otherwise.

Be careful, they are going to say that you hate Dempsey and accuse you of accusing him of being racist out of nowhere.

I don't even hate Dempsey. I have a lot of respect for him from recently reading up about him and some of the other fighters from this time period. Perhaps they didn't like the language I used when I said he "ran out of the ring" from Joe Jeannette. I didn't mean he actually did a full on sprint. But the facts are they were there at an event to fight, their opponents didn't show, Jeanette was game and Dempsey walked away. Simple as that. Whether that was more due to his manager wanting no part of it and Dempsey going along in the least, to Dempsey having fear at the most, I have no idea. He did admit that he was afraid of Sam Langford in 1916.

The facts are the facts whether they like it or not. He did draw the color line at one point officially via direct quotations. He also must have drawn the color-line before that time since he refused to fight a black boxer ever since John Lester Johnson broke three of his ribs. He never fought Wills, though he claimed he would, and he said it was because the money didn't show up. Whether that was the true reason or not, I can't know. But the fact is he didn't fight any of the prominent black boxers of his time. It's simple.

Didn't mean to twist the topic here (can't remember if this was your thread on Johnson or if that was another one). Was just responding when Ghost brought up Dempsey. I'm not even a fan of Jack Johnson's boxing style. But if you haven't checked out "Unforgivable Blackness" (I'm almost sure you have), check it out homie! It was really well done.

[travestyny]

Dempsey flipped-flopped so often on this issue that I could post a half dozen claims both ways.

Good find, but is that Dempsey calling blacks "negro"?

According to this guy, that might mean something

At that time in American history the public was racist af. Colored was considered the non-racist polite term. If Dempsey had a real disdain for black folks he would have said 'negro'.

Pardon me, just poking fun at the above guy for being too damn emotional I don't think any of us here have accused Dempsey of being racist. However, he did duck black fighters. Whether that was strictly because of his management or because of other reasons, I don't know.

[ShoulderRoll]

Be careful, they are going to say that you hate Dempsey and accuse you of accusing him of being racist out of nowhere.

I don't even hate Dempsey. I have a lot of respect for him from recently reading up about him and some of the other fighters from this time period. Perhaps they didn't like the language I used when I said he "ran out of the ring" from Joe Jeannette. I didn't mean he actually did a full on sprint. But the facts are they were there at an event to fight, their opponents didn't show, Jeanette was game and Dempsey walked away. Simple as that. Whether that was more due to his manager wanting no part of it and Dempsey going along in the least, to Dempsey having fear at the most, I have no idea. He did admit that he was afraid of Sam Langford in 1916.

The facts are the facts whether they like it or not. He did draw the color line at one point officially via direct quotations. He also must have drawn the color-line before that time since he refused to fight a black boxer ever since John Lester Johnson broke three of his ribs. He never fought Wills, though he claimed he would, and he said it was because the money didn't show up. Whether that was the true reason or not, I can't know. But the fact is he didn't fight any of the prominent black boxers of his time. It's simple.

Didn't mean to twist the topic here (can't remember if this was your thread on Johnson or if that was another one). Was just responding when Ghost brought up Dempsey. I'm not even a fan of Jack Johnson's boxing style. But if you haven't checked out "Unforgivable Blackness" (I'm almost sure you have), check it out homie! It was really well done.

I am a big fan of both Dempsey and Jack Johnson and of course I have seen Unforgiveable Blackness.

You posted some good sources to back up your points about this and about the bicycle tape. That's how a debate is supposed to go, even if it paints some of my heroes in a less than perfect light.

I have no problem with what you said. You're entitled to an opinion and as long as you defend what you say with evidence then its all good.

[travestyny]

Here's something to think about regarding Sam Langford.

In 1916, when 21 year old Dempsey was saying, “The Hell I feared no man. There was one man, he was even smaller than I, and I wouldn’t fight because I knew he would flatten me. I was afraid of Sam Langford,” Dempsey had 26 professional fights. Langford was 33 with 169 fights. We've been looking at that as Dempsey should have steered clear, but that may have been more of a reason for Dempsey to pounce. Imagine how war torn Langford must have been, but he was THAT good I suppose.

It should be noted though, that 20 year old Bill Tate with 26 professional fights fought Langford in November of 1916 to a draw, and beat him in January of 1917 for the colored title. So whether you guys want to accept Dempsey's inexperience as a reason for not fighting him, or the fear he said he felt, or just ducking black fighters in general....hey, that's for you to decide.

I'm just saying.....


Even in the 1920's, he still was chasing Dempsey.

"The funny thing about Langford is that he's half-blind, and he comes to Doc Kearns [manager of heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey] in the '20s -- and remember, Sam Langford has been fighting since the aughts -- and he wants to fight Dempsey. And Doc Kearns says, 'Sam, we were looking for somebody easier.'

"He was half-blind, he was a goddamned middleweight, and he was that good."

Anyway, it's also true that once Jack Johnson became Champ, he also wanted no part of Langford for whatever reason, though he did give him a beating when they fought. So draw your own conclusions.

[HOUDINI563]

Sam Langford:
Jack Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Good find, but is that Dempsey calling blacks "negro"?

According to this guy, that might mean something

Both terms, colored and negro were considered polite terms. The New York Times, who was all in for Wills often referred to him as the 'Giant New Orleans Negro.'

Colored was considered casual and negro formal. What one could say is that a person using the word 'negro' was likely trying to distant (segregate) himself with formallity. But it does not necessarily translate to racism or hate.

You already know the vulgar words they used, they haven't changed.

[travestyny]

Both terms, colored and negro were considered polite terms. The New York Times, who was all in for Wills often referred to him as the 'Giant New Orleans Negro.'

Colored was considered casual and negro formal. What one could say is that a person using the word 'negro' was likely trying to distant (segregate) himself with formallity. But it does not necessarily translate to racism or hate.

You already know the vulgar words they used, they haven't changed.

Of course! I was just poking fun at the other dude. I've never stated that Dempsey was racist toward blacks. Don't know why he pulled that from his arse.

[travestyny]

Sam Langford:
Jack Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen.

I have no reason to doubt he believed that


Dempsey still swerved Langford.