May Madness - Middleweights

[K-DOGG]

Yeah, that is definately the truth and it does make predicting some of these matchups difficult to handicap...especially an all-time tournament like this one at middleweight, where there's either no footage available of the fighters involved (there's about 10 out of 32 that I haven't seen...although I've also read quite a bit about what those I haven't seen were said to have brought to the table) or it's footage of the fighters when they're not neccessarily at their very best...

It's unfortunate that the middleweight division is historically lacking in the amount of footage that's still available nowadays, and also a little bit suprising considering it's probably the second most prestigious division in the sport (for comparision sake, there's quite a bit more footage of the great lightweights available than there is of the middleweights).

Hmmm. That is surprising. I would have thought the footage would correspond to popularity of the different classes. More lightweight than middleweight. That is odd.

[Brassangel]

The votes have been collected and tallied for round 2. Advancing to the Elite 8 are the following:

WEST Finals
1. Ray Robinson vs.
2. Bob Fitzsimmons

NORTH Finals
1. Carlos Monzon vs.
2. Stanley Ketchel

EAST Finals
1. Marvin Hagler vs.
3. Charley Burley

SOUTH Finals
1. Harry Greb vs.
2. Micky Walker

As you can see, all #1 fighters advanced, and three of four #2 seats advanced to the quarterfinals. Micky Walker was able to puff up Roy Jones pretty severely, and Burley KO'd the normally iron-chinned LaMotta. Hagler was Marvellous as usual, while Ketchel and Hopkins went into the late rounds in a chess match. Ray Robinson hasn't lost a round of any fight yet, and Fitzsimmons was able to outlast Tony Zale.

As usual, send your votes for the Elite 8 to my PM, and stay tuned for the Final Four!

[K-DOGG]

The votes have been collected and tallied for round 2. Advancing to the Elite 8 are the following:

WEST Finals
1. Ray Robinson vs.
2. Bob Fitzsimmons

NORTH Finals
1. Carlos Monzon vs.
2. Stanley Ketchel

EAST Finals
1. Marvin Hagler vs.
3. Charley Burley

SOUTH Finals
1. Harry Greb vs.
2. Micky Walker

As you can see, all #1 fighters advanced, and three of four #2 seats advanced to the quarterfinals. Micky Walker was able to puff up Roy Jones pretty severely, and Burley KO'd the normally iron-chinned LaMotta. Hagler was Marvellous as usual, while Ketchel and Hopkins went into the late rounds in a chess match. Ray Robinson hasn't lost a round of any fight yet, and Fitzsimmons was able to outlast Tony Zale.

As usual, send your votes for the Elite 8 to my PM, and stay tuned for the Final Four!

Damn, this is a hard round for pix.

West

Got to go with Robinson in this one by a late round TKO on cuts. I think Ray's just too fast and too accurate for Fitz.

North

Very hard pick here. Part of me thinks Monzon's just too big and strong for Stanley; but Ketchel was one of the toughest S.O.B.'s ever and could crowd when he wanted, which might give Monzon some trouble; but, in the end, I think Carlos wins a decision....it's gonna be close, either way, IMO.

East

Another tough call; but I'm going to side with Burley based on the styles of this match-up. Charley reportedly had a great right hand and was a fabulous technician...both of which would give the southpaw Hagler fits. Burley by close decsion

South

A classic encounter redone....I'm goin' with Greb this time

[Yogi]

My picks;

Sugar Ray Robinson W-15 Bob Fitzsimmons

Tough fight to handicap because I've only seen about three or four minutes of Fitz on film, but I think I have to favour Robinson in a mostly tactical battle fought from long range...Robinson's quicker hands & better punchrate probably being the difference and I think he could probably bloody Fitz up some around the mouth and nose area with the jab & right hands from out there. Wouldn't suprise me though if Fitz landed a long range right hand or two on Robinson that resulted in Sugar Ray going down for a spell.

Carlos Monzon W-15 Stanley Ketchel

I have to go with Monzon to win a clear decision on this one just because I think he could nuetralize Ketchel's inside game in the clinch (Monzon would probably be outmuscled and pushed around some in there, but I've never seen him take much punishment while there and was usually quite successful at nuetralizing his opponents' arms inside), as well as his chin & defensive/radar instincts nuetralizing much of Ketchel's power punches when coming inside. Don't see a pretty fight happening, but I think Monzon scores enough often with his ever so accurate jabs & straight right hands at distance to where he wins a pretty clear decision at the end of the night.

Harry Greb TKO-14 Mickey Walker

Walker fought Greb very tough according to the reports, but Greb was said to have cut the deficit Walker built over the first half of the fight, and basically took over the fight in the late goings...Greb was said to have been a couple/few years past his best in that fight with Walker, who was prime, and if Walker was "all but out on his feet" in the 14th round against a past it Harry Greb in their actual meeting, I like an earlier version of Greb to finish his rival late in the fight.


Have to abstain from the Hagler/Burley matchup for now, because that one is a toughie to call. On one hand I can see Burley having the same success that Duran did in landing the counter right hands against Hagler in a pretty tactical battle. But...ah, **** it, I'll say that Burley takes a close one against an opponent who much preferred his opponent come after him.

Charley Burley W-15 Marvin Hagler

[Brassangel]

The Final Four has arrived in rather lackluster fashion. While I have enjoyed discussing and reading about the variating styles of these great middleweights, as well as witnessing some voting upsets over fighters like Roy Jones Jr., and Marvin Hagler, there have been far fewer participants than I would have hoped. Even so, here are the final four fighters.

Ray Robinson vs. Carlos Monzon

"Sugar" Ray Robinson, considered by many to be the best pound-for-pound fighter in history. Pure boxing form, good defense, speed, power, and endurance in a complete package. Carlos Monzon was an accurate puncher, with a solid jab, a strong counterpunch, and good interior defense.

Harry Greb vs. Charley Burley
I thoroughly expected to see "Marvellous" Marvin in this position, but the voters agreed that Burley's counter-right hand would edge out the decision against one of the sport's greatest. Harry Greb was able to overcome the slight disadvantages he suffered in his first meeting with Mickey Walker, thanks to a fresher set of legs and a couple of years off of the aging block.

The semifinals are loaded with four incredible fighters that I would pay a truck load to see. Who will survive this marathon of skill, wits, and stamina to meet an even greater opponent waiting in the finals? Vote now!

[K-DOGG]

Carlos Monzon vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Talk about a difficult tactical match-up. One thing I couldn't help but notice about Monzon in the footage I've seen is not only is he very precise with his punches, he appears to be slower than the average middleweight....this would not help him against the lightning fast Robinson, unless his timing was so accurate that he could actually time the small openings in Ray's defense before they vanished. Personally, I think he would be successful on occasion; but not enough to win the fight. The main problem Carlos would present for Robinson, IMO, would be the height and reach advantage, in addition to his timing and right hand power; but Ray had a great chin as well and was no slouch in the timing department. In the end, I see Robinson winning a tough, tactical UD.


More later.

[K-DOGG]

Charley Burley vs. Harry Greb

Irony of ironies, there is no footage of Greb and only one surviving film of Burley to my knowledge. How do you pick the winner of this one? Talk about guess work.

Well, from what I've read of both, this would be an extremely intriguing affair with the stylistic Burley against the aggressive ghost Greb. Though I can't say for sure, instinct tells me that Greb would have the faster hands. Greb was ultra aggressive and a master of the darker side of the sport as well as tough as nails. Burley, on the other hand, was the master tactitician with good right hand power. Greb overwhelmed with volume and accuracey, while not possessing a killer wallop. Would Burley be slick enough to outslick the multi-active Greb down the stretch? I don't think so.

True, superb boxer Gene Tunney beat Greb; but Tunney was a light-heavyweight...and more or less used rough-house tactics in the two fights he won against Harry.....and, it should be noted that Greb is the onlly loss on the Former Heavyweight Champion's resume....and that is noteworthy.

Final Prediction: Greb W15 or 12 over Burley.

[Brassangel]

This is it. The final matchup in a grueling, 32-man Middleweight tournament.

Ray Robinson vs. Harry Greb

Ray Robinson has probably been a favorite since early in the tournament, while Greb pulled off a few surprise wins in impressive fashion. The three people viewing this thread had better stay tuned for the finale. Submit your votes via PM to me, Brassangel, and await the outcome!

[SABBATH]

Carlos Monzon vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Talk about a difficult tactical match-up. One thing I couldn't help but notice about Monzon in the footage I've seen is not only is he very precise with his punches, he appears to be slower than the average middleweight....this would not help him against the lightning fast Robinson, unless his timing was so accurate that he could actually time the small openings in Ray's defense before they vanished. Personally, I think he would be successful on occasion; but not enough to win the fight. The main problem Carlos would present for Robinson, IMO, would be the height and reach advantage, in addition to his timing and right hand power; but Ray had a great chin as well and was no slouch in the timing department. In the end, I see Robinson winning a tough, tactical UD.
More later.

I read that Sugar's management ideally liked Ray to fight fighters around 5'8 in height, believing that taller fighters would pose a more difficult fight for Robinson's style. Having said that, Robinson looked very good against Joey Maxim but if you are to believe Doc Kearns, Maxim only bided his time and waited for Ray to wilt in the heat.

Ray was at his best as a welterweight and I see Monzon's height, reach, power and durability presenting problems but Ray is P4P the King and would overcome these factors for a close very difficult fight. In a series though I could definitely see Monzon beating Robinson.

[K-DOGG]

I have been spending the last couple of hours going over Robinson-Greb in my mind....it's killing me; and here' why:

Greb was in his prime at middleweight, Robinson wasn't. Robinson at 160 had trouble with Gene Fulmer and Carmen Basilio, who were both pressure fighters, as was Greb; and Fulmer was awkward...as Greb could be considered. True, Robison was well past his best when he met both men; but he was only one fight (title fight, that is)removed from winning the title the first time when he lost it to Turpin in his very first defense, who is also awkward in his own way, so, at 160, Robinson was beatable.

Greb, on the other hand, at Middleweight, was at his physical peak. I'd earlier said the Greb fought Tunney three times...I was incorrect, it was four. Apologies for my indiscrepancy. However, of the four fights, several have argued that Greb won 2...one was an official win, the other was an official loss, where a few thought Greb got robbed. Either way...this is my point; Greb was at his actual best at middleweight, Robinson wasn't. (that's right, you can feel it coming...I'll tie my own blindfold and light my own last cigarette.)

Robinson at his best at Middlweight vs Greb at his best at Middleweight....


Result: Greb UD over Robinson


****!!!