the final word on who wins...a grappler versus a boxer

[Anthony342]

Yeah that or Toney-Couture. Sylvia was done by then. I give Mercer credit for one thing though. He was the first fighter to ever stop Sylvia. Before then, his only losses were by submission or decision. Even Arlovski and Fedor locked him in submissions after they knocked him down, since Tim was known to recover and come back in his younger days after a knockdown. Arlovski even went for the stoppage in a rematch and it cost him. He's been stopped twice since and I believe this is still his only loss where he was out cold (KO, instead of TKO).

It's pretty much a matter of the boxer being able to get there with his punches first, if that's the only discipline being relied upon, or landing punches while defending takedowns (sprawl and brawl, like boxer Paul Buentello). And MMA, just like boxing, is about who can impose their will and style on their opponent.

[rightsideup]

Ali was hospitalized with multiple blood clots on his legs from all the kicks delivered by Inoki while on his back. No doubt this accelerated the end of his career and softened him up even more for Spinks, Holmes, and Berbick,

i read that fredie p advised ali on treatment and also not to go to a different country to participate in a boxing exhibition . he did the exhibition and did not do the treatments and was hospitalized when he returned to the states

[BennyST]

There will never be a final word on it. I will say that the grappler/wrestler has one huge advantage starting out. Their game is to grab you basically, just simply to get a hold of you i.e. once they have a gold of you, it's their world. They don't have to land a punch, they don't even have to throw a punch. All they have to do is shoot in and grab you. That's a lot easier than to land accurate, damaging punches to someone's vigorously moving head as they shoot in to grab you.

What makes that an advantage is that it's a hell of a lot easier to simply get in and grab a hold of someone, especially if it's a big part of your training to do it with effectiveness, defense, speed, power and skill, than it is to land punches on someone shooting in to grab you.

There seems to be a really bizarre myth going around, usually on boxing sites of course by people that have clearly never tried this stuff or even had to throw punches at someone, that all you have to do is step back or to the side and then land a punch on them as they move in and it's game over. Oh that it were so easy!

It's hilarious how often you see that argument though.

Think about this way...how often does a boxer land a KO punch to an opponent that's simply moving in? It's rare and that's to a guy that's also looking to throw punches himself and is often open, with his head up etc, rather than just get in close to grab you and shooting in, head down, arms up and focused on defense.

How easy does Wlad seem to be able to just slide in and clinch/hug his opponents?

It's incredibly difficult to time a step back and land a clean, accurate punch on someone moving in and anyone with real experience knows this very well. We're talking pros usually, but it's even harder for most people that haven't the first idea about effective, evasive footwork. It's even harder to do that when that same person can duck their head right down low and shoot in at you, whether it's set up with some kind of feint or whether it's done by timing a punch and going under it. They train this stuff as much as boxers train their jab.

The biggest thing people seem to forget is that to be able to punch someone hard, you have to be close enough that they can grab you too and it's a hell of a lot easier to simply grab someone than it is to land clean, accurate, damaging head shots.

[Scott9945]

Wasn't he pretty much shot by then already? Or at least, after the Spinks rematch?

This happened between the Dunn and the 3rd Norton fight. Ali was on the decline, but he hadn't lost a fight in over three years. He fought seven more times after the Inoki farce.

[juggernaut666]

I didnt have to click the link as usual just anther fight ive seen no less than 10 times .im assuming Andre or Inoki?...was it a good measuring stick? Not in the least . For one the silly rules that Ali implemented . Why did he insist on his modified rules ? He went to Inokis gym and saw he wasnt just a pro wrestling but someone who could very well severly hurt him to whatever Ali saw ,he implemented the no grabbing on the feet? lol That pretty much ends this right here so no need to further get into the match itself which was basically dumb ,if Ali did not wish to truly let the grappler use his skill sets instead of making it a mockery ,he should have just declined.On a side note which was brought up Ali was in the hospital for 2 weeks after this from all the leg kicks which caused a blood clot and almost lost his leg.This was another rule Ali implemented of the not allowing kicking on the feet so that aspect still back fired on him. The Andre fiasco wasnt real up until Wepner was actually trying to hurt him which is ridiculous trying to do with punches .

Would this be a true mesuring stick today? Not even close .For one Ali is not the best style to represent boxing to go against a true grappler ,and Inoki who was more professional wrestling based by todays standards isnt anywhere on the level of todays grapplers . Even so you simply cant judge any comparison on one fight thats not realistic .Your looking beyond reasonability .If fighter A who is a PURE boxer Knocks out fighter B who is a PURE grappler what does it prove? Nothing other than fighter A won that night .Using ANY small percent against overall statistics is meaningless . A fights a fight anything could happen no matter what rule sets are you fighting under but to use a small % or one incident as a measuring stick is futile . From my own perspective who actually has experience first hand with what this thread topic is i can tell you the grappler win or lose has a distinct advantage . Funny thing to i trained with former boxing champ Yuri Vaulin back in the late 90's briefly in N.Y ,and he entered the UFC not to long before that ...well needless to say things didnt work out so good for him as it usually doesnt for anyone with no grappling experience .

At the end of the day its really the individual who matters ,however if one doesn't want to take my word for it as the few imbecilic characters one in particular on here like to pretend they know more ,well take Tysons word for it when he said only a fool goes into MMA without some level of grappling which he also states why he would lose himself !

Good topic anyway to discuss bill !

[billeau2]

I didnt have to click the link as usual just anther fight ive seen no less than 10 times .im assuming Andre or Inoki?...was it a good measuring stick? Not in the least . For one the silly rules that Ali implemented . Why did he insist on his modified rules ? He went to Inokis gym and saw he wasnt just a pro wrestling but someone who could very well severly hurt him to whatever Ali saw ,he implemented the no grabbing on the feet? lol That pretty much ends this right here so no need to further get into the match itself which was basically dumb ,if Ali did not wish to truly let the grappler use his skill sets instead of making it a mockery ,he should have just declined.On a side note which was brought up Ali was in the hospital for 2 weeks after this from all the leg kicks which caused a blood clot and almost lost his leg.This was another rule Ali implemented of the not allowing kicking on the feet so that aspect still back fired on him. The Andre fiasco wasnt real up until Wepner was actually trying to hurt him which is ridiculous trying to do with punches .

Would this be a true mesuring stick today? Not even close .For one Ali is not the best style to represent boxing to go against a true grappler ,and Inoki who was more professional wrestling based by todays standards isnt anywhere on the level of todays grapplers . Even so you simply cant judge any comparison on one fight thats not realistic .Your looking beyond reasonability .If fighter A who is a PURE boxer Knocks out fighter B who is a PURE grappler what does it prove? Nothing other than fighter A won that night .Using ANY small percent against overall statistics is meaningless . A fights a fight anything could happen no matter what rule sets are you fighting under but to use a small % or one incident as a measuring stick is futile . From my own perspective who actually has experience first hand with what this thread topic is i can tell you the grappler win or lose has a distinct advantage . Funny thing to i trained with former boxing champ Yuri Vaulin back in the late 90's briefly in N.Y ,and he entered the UFC not to long before that ...well needless to say things didnt work out so good for him as it usually doesnt for anyone with no grappling experience .

At the end of the day its really the individual who matters ,however if one doesn't want to take my word for it as the few imbecilic characters one in particular on here like to pretend they know more ,well take Tysons word for it when he said only a fool goes into MMA without some level of grappling which he also states why he would lose himself !

Good topic anyway to discuss bill !

Actually the title was meant to be sarcastic lol. It should be obvious from what we know now that these matches were a carnival show and little else.

I hope people realize that the thread title was meant to be humerous....I thought the word "final" would make sure that was the intent.

[juggernaut666]

Yeah that or Toney-Couture. Sylvia was done by then. I give Mercer credit for one thing though. He was the first fighter to ever stop Sylvia. Before then, his only losses were by submission or decision. Even Arlovski and Fedor locked him in submissions after they knocked him down, since Tim was known to recover and come back in his younger days after a knockdown. Arlovski even went for the stoppage in a rematch and it cost him. He's been stopped twice since and I believe this is still his only loss where he was out cold (KO, instead of TKO).

It's pretty much a matter of the boxer being able to get there with his punches first, if that's the only discipline being relied upon, or landing punches while defending takedowns (sprawl and brawl, like boxer Paul Buentello). And MMA, just like boxing, is about who can impose their will and style on their opponent.

Sylvia never truly had a strong chin,prior to his Mercer fight he was dropped by Couture .Even his own training partner told Tim not to take the fight which was an originally planned boxing match. Finding out Sylvia was going to trade punch s with Mercer still , Pulver called the k.o win for Mercer and warned Sylvia it wasnt a good idea,and he found out why! The funny thing is Sylvia prior to this had his whole boxing career lined out....nope!

[juggernaut666]

Actually the title was meant to be sarcastic lol. It should be obvious from what we know now that these matches were a carnival show and little else.

I hope people realize that the thread title was meant to be humerous....I thought the word "final" would make sure that was the intent.

No i was agreeing with you ,just basing my post on how most take one knock out and use it as the measuring stick as some have done on here with reference to the Sylvia / Mercer fight .Which also gets almost always used ,which the counter then , is Mercer / Kimbo ! My post is just summarized odds of the grapple vs striker in general .

[Mr.MojoRisin']

I didnt have to click the link as usual just anther fight ive seen no less than 10 times .im assuming Andre or Inoki?...was it a good measuring stick? Not in the least . For one the silly rules that Ali implemented . Why did he insist on his modified rules ? He went to Inokis gym and saw he wasnt just a pro wrestling but someone who could very well severly hurt him to whatever Ali saw ,he implemented the no grabbing on the feet? lol That pretty much ends this right here so no need to further get into the match itself which was basically dumb ,if Ali did not wish to truly let the grappler use his skill sets instead of making it a mockery ,he should have just declined.On a side note which was brought up Ali was in the hospital for 2 weeks after this from all the leg kicks which caused a blood clot and almost lost his leg.This was another rule Ali implemented of the not allowing kicking on the feet so that aspect still back fired on him. The Andre fiasco wasnt real up until Wepner was actually trying to hurt him which is ridiculous trying to do with punches .

Would this be a true mesuring stick today? Not even close .For one Ali is not the best style to represent boxing to go against a true grappler ,and Inoki who was more professional wrestling based by todays standards isnt anywhere on the level of todays grapplers . Even so you simply cant judge any comparison on one fight thats not realistic .Your looking beyond reasonability .If fighter A who is a PURE boxer Knocks out fighter B who is a PURE grappler what does it prove? Nothing other than fighter A won that night .Using ANY small percent against overall statistics is meaningless . A fights a fight anything could happen no matter what rule sets are you fighting under but to use a small % or one incident as a measuring stick is futile . From my own perspective who actually has experience first hand with what this thread topic is i can tell you the grappler win or lose has a distinct advantage . Funny thing to i trained with former boxing champ Yuri Vaulin back in the late 90's briefly in N.Y ,and he entered the UFC not to long before that ...well needless to say things didnt work out so good for him as it usually doesnt for anyone with no grappling experience .

At the end of the day its really the individual who matters ,however if one doesn't want to take my word for it as the few imbecilic characters one in particular on here like to pretend they know more ,well take Tysons word for it when he said only a fool goes into MMA without some level of grappling which he also states why he would lose himself !

Good topic anyway to discuss bill !

I agree that Ali wasn't a good style to represent boxing. For one, he couldn't throw that good an uppercut which would be one of the key punches when fighting a grappler.

[juggernaut666]

I agree that Ali wasn't a good style to represent boxing. For one, he couldn't throw that good an uppercut which would be one of the key punches when fighting a grappler.

It would be more his back peddle style and style in general of not being an explosive style ,he would not be moving around the cage for 12 rnds playing try and hit me. Ali had a whipping upper cut when he threw it way from left field however that tall upright stance he throws it from simply doesnt reach the much lower grappler where Alis legs are easily there to pick off the ground once he plants his feet .