Footwork, Ali Case?

[nivek535]

i get that ali has good footwork,
but what is often mentioned is his "dancing like" footwork.
i dont think that is good footwork. that is unnecessary/excessive..
dancing around the ring in circles is excessive
having good footwork should mean the fighter constantly being in position/balanced. not dancing/running out of range for 90% of the time.

[miamike]

Ali's footwork was part of one of the greatest defenses of all time. He was a master at making fighters look slow and plodding. Which is exactly how he would make the present division look today if he was fighting now.

[Zaroku]

His footwork allowed Ali to decide when to engage & when not to engage. Ali controlled distance, he decided when things would happen. For plodding power punchers this is extremely frustrating.

[Dip_Slide]

Controlling distance between yourself and your opponent, being able to control when to close that distance and when to stay away while forcing your opponent to constantly reset after every failed attempt of getting off his offense is a lost art in boxing, this is the best way of draining your opponent mentally and frustrating him, which sooner or later begins to take a toll on your opponent physically and this gives you the chance to pick it up in the later rounds and to close the show.

Chess not checkers, some offensive fighters have good footwork offensively, but this consumes a lot of energy like for example Manny Pacquiao who constantly moved and used angles while throwing 4-5 punch combinations for 12 rounds, don't ask me where he got that kind of stamina from but it was damn sure very effective especially against other offensive fighters.

[billeau2]

i get that ali has good footwork,
but what is often mentioned is his "dancing like" footwork.
i dont think that is good footwork. that is unnecessary/excessive..
dancing around the ring in circles is excessive
having good footwork should mean the fighter constantly being in position/balanced. not dancing/running out of range for 90% of the time.

There is a lot to unpack in responding to this post of yours. There is indeed a lot of confusion about supposed dancing and the footwork of a fighter.As a matter of fact, this issue transcends boxing! Back in the seventies some if the best karate fighters got together and decided they wanted to compete like a boxer does...What happened next changed the landscape forever and perhaps detroyed the efficiency of an art that had been around for many moons.

The new hybrid art was called kickboxing. It was supposed to be boxing with kicks thrown in. the problem is karate started to characterize their fighters using this art. In Karate traditionally one does not bounce, they move fluidly but with strong stepping and sliding movements. This made karate deadly for too many reasons to elaborate. But guys would spar like kick boxers to the point where eventually karate technique was looked upon as just part of tradition, while the fighters in the various clubs, bounced around the ring at each other.

In boxing it was perhaps, and this is an opinion, Sugar Ray Robinson who made people observe the dancing that allowed a fighter to move easily on the feet. Dancing, like road work and rope skipping, were all movement exerscizes to make a fighter light in the feet.

The theory is that when a fighter is set, they are easily readable. In order to step lightly, one must have a certain amount of lightness in the legs. Keep in mind that in the old ways of boxing one had to step in at sword length to catch an opponent square....so being light on the feet was particularly important. While fighters like Jeffries were big strong guys who could wade in, people like Johnson and Corbett used footwork and feints to enter into the distance to strike an opponent.

What Ali and others did was to use stepping movements to keep relaxed, so that they were never a sitting target. While guys like Liston and Foreman were more light on their feet than they appear, the real importance of relaxed movement where a man is not set, resides in how to deal with a puncher who is abe to step in quickly with light body movement...So for example to answer your question a seminal fight would be Tunney against Dempsey, the first fight. Watch how Dempsey is so quick coming in and Tunney has to be very light and adaptable to keep his distance and counter. What you see in this fight is in a sense, the genius of Corbett.

For while Corbett probably did not have the tools to deal with an onslaught like dempsey's his methods, which Tunney was a fan of, were excellent. Corbett always set up his punches from sword length range, (which is why he looks so silly punching at times) and used light feet to enter and set traps. Tunney is doing this against Dempsey.

So by the modern times, where guys squared up more, etc being light on the feet allowed a guy to relax and keep with a puncher, just out of range. Ali often just misses getting hit because of his light feet and because he is already moving when he is attacked.

Hope this helps

[Ray Corso]

Ali knew 3 minutes better than any other fighter.
He would break down the round in thirds (3/ 1 min. rds)
His methodology was to open a round on defense (moving) then win the second half of the first minute! He would look to win 90 seconds (the second half of each minute) The rest of the time try not to get hit by not engaging. Now as he got older he had to reinvent himself but in his prime he was a very difficult opponent. He remains the fastest heavyweight ever and no one is close.

Traditional footwork is all about balance to be able to deliver punches and to not get caught with a shot when not balanced. Your legs keep you up so when your not in balance your susceptible to get hurt.

Ali is a mix of Joe Louis & Sugar Ray Robinson, I ad Louis in because Ali was very good with combinations. He worked speed instead of power but he did work in combination which has become a lost art since Tyson's era!

Ray

[juggernaut666]

Ali knew 3 minutes better than any other fighter.
He would break down the round in thirds (3/ 1 min. rds)
His methodology was to open a round on defense (moving) then win the second half of the first minute! He would look to win 90 seconds (the second half of each minute) The rest of the time try not to get hit by not engaging. Now as he got older he had to reinvent himself but in his prime he was a very difficult opponent. He remains the fastest heavyweight ever and no one is close.

Traditional footwork is all about balance to be able to deliver punches and to not get caught with a shot when not balanced. Your legs keep you up so when your not in balance your susceptible to get hurt.

Ali is a mix of Joe Louis & Sugar Ray Robinson, I ad Louis in because Ali was very good with combinations. He worked speed instead of power but he did work in combination which has become a lost art since Tyson's era!

Ray

"He remains the fastest heavyweight ever and no one is close."



Only in the corso super hero comic book boxing universe..... the other thread already showed Tyson was faster and it was proven through actually slowing down the timing of BOTH fighters...or with punch for punch power shots!

[juggernaut666]

There is a lot to unpack in responding to this post of yours. There is indeed a lot of confusion about supposed dancing and the footwork of a fighter.As a matter of fact, this issue transcends boxing! Back in the seventies some if the best karate fighters got together and decided they wanted to compete like a boxer does...What happened next changed the landscape forever and perhaps detroyed the efficiency of an art that had been around for many moons.

The new hybrid art was called kickboxing. It was supposed to be boxing with kicks thrown in. the problem is karate started to characterize their fighters using this art. In Karate traditionally one does not bounce, they move fluidly but with strong stepping and sliding movements. This made karate deadly for too many reasons to elaborate. But guys would spar like kick boxers to the point where eventually karate technique was looked upon as just part of tradition, while the fighters in the various clubs, bounced around the ring at each other.

In boxing it was perhaps, and this is an opinion, Sugar Ray Robinson who made people observe the dancing that allowed a fighter to move easily on the feet. Dancing, like road work and rope skipping, were all movement exerscizes to make a fighter light in the feet.

The theory is that when a fighter is set, they are easily readable. In order to step lightly, one must have a certain amount of lightness in the legs. Keep in mind that in the old ways of boxing one had to step in at sword length to catch an opponent square....so being light on the feet was particularly important. While fighters like Jeffries were big strong guys who could wade in, people like Johnson and Corbett used footwork and feints to enter into the distance to strike an opponent.

What Ali and others did was to use stepping movements to keep relaxed, so that they were never a sitting target. While guys like Liston and Foreman were more light on their feet than they appear, the real importance of relaxed movement where a man is not set, resides in how to deal with a puncher who is abe to step in quickly with light body movement...So for example to answer your question a seminal fight would be Tunney against Dempsey, the first fight. Watch how Dempsey is so quick coming in and Tunney has to be very light and adaptable to keep his distance and counter. What you see in this fight is in a sense, the genius of Corbett.

For while Corbett probably did not have the tools to deal with an onslaught like dempsey's his methods, which Tunney was a fan of, were excellent. Corbett always set up his punches from sword length range, (which is why he looks so silly punching at times) and used light feet to enter and set traps. Tunney is doing this against Dempsey.

So by the modern times, where guys squared up more, etc being light on the feet allowed a guy to relax and keep with a puncher, just out of range. Ali often just misses getting hit because of his light feet and because he is already moving when he is attacked.

Hope this helps

'What happened next changed the landscape forever and perhaps detroyed the efficiency of an art that had been around for many moons. "

This is a bit extreme...many karate styles existed...I don't think it really effects the actual martial art self defense ...Kick boxing as you said was made with guys who liked to kick and another art was created. I don't think sport competiton diminishes anything to much if at all if one takes up karate arts..

As of footwork well up until the 60's footwork was not utilized as much and certainly not from the sluggers of Corbett or Dempseys era,which why he struggled with tunney who used simple run around tactics...Louis for example was known to have great footwork...well then came Conn who moved like normal boxers would move eventually and he looked amazing...does he look amazing now? No not really.



Alis blue print took the standard in the 80's.


'The theory is that when a fighter is set, they are easily readable. In order to step lightly, one must have a certain amount of lightness in the legs. Keep in mind that in the old ways of boxing one had to step in at sword length to catch an opponent square....so being light on the feet was particularly important. While fighters like Jeffries were big strong guys who could wade in, people like Johnson and Corbett used footwork and feints to enter into the distance to strike an opponent. "

This I agree with ^^^^^

But they had certain advantages that most didn't , knowledge or philoshy too of footwork..still a basic unrefined time to use footwork as we know it...Ali imop was the first to use it more scientifically that Louis didn't have the ability to,though I think Louis was smarter he wasn't as athletic,they just trained different in their eras which is important. The guys of past who used it stood out and they were far and few between.

[billeau2]

'What happened next changed the landscape forever and perhaps detroyed the efficiency of an art that had been around for many moons. "

This is a bit extreme...many karate styles existed...I don't think it really effects the actual martial art self defense ...Kick boxing as you said was made with guys who liked to kick and another art was created. I don't think sport competiton diminishes anything to much if at all if one takes up karate arts..

As of footwork well up until the 60's footwork was not utilized as much and certainly not from the sluggers of Corbett or Dempseys era,which why he struggled with tunney who used simple run around tactics...Louis for example was known to have great footwork...well then came Conn who moved like normal boxers would move eventually and he looked amazing...does he look amazing now? No not really.



Alis blue print took the standard in the 80's.


'The theory is that when a fighter is set, they are easily readable. In order to step lightly, one must have a certain amount of lightness in the legs. Keep in mind that in the old ways of boxing one had to step in at sword length to catch an opponent square....so being light on the feet was particularly important. While fighters like Jeffries were big strong guys who could wade in, people like Johnson and Corbett used footwork and feints to enter into the distance to strike an opponent. "

This I agree with ^^^^^

But they had certain advantages that most didn't , knowledge or philoshy too of footwork..still a basic unrefined time to use footwork as we know it...Ali imop was the first to use it more scientifically that Louis didn't have the ability to,though I think Louis was smarter he wasn't as athletic,they just trained different in their eras which is important. The guys of past who used it stood out and they were far and few between.

The kickboxing was fine in itself...but karate guys started to fight like kickboxers...not the kickboxers fault per se, but not good for the karate guys. Its just a different body dynamic. Karate works explosively and with firm footing, kick boxing is boxing with kicks.

Footwork was different. Distances changed, etc. You said it yourself Juggy: there are no boring fights, there are things that can be analyzed in every fight. The difference is that most of the footwork and fight in the old days took place when guys were not squared up. Differnt conditions made for different fighting strategies. Part of the reason for this was perhaps that the gloves were smaller, a punch landing had more effect, or at least different effect.

I tend to think that while there were crude fighters in any era, there were also adaptions made, and clever fighters in every era. When fighters began to square up more, body movements utilizing the upper body from the waist, and body angling became more pronounced...what is sometimes called Tai Sabaki in the Jpanese Arts. Guys like Floyd and Whitaker use these types of movements well. Angling the shoulders away from a punch while the rest of the body is stationary.

[DinoCop]

He was an out-boxer, and in that sense he created angles for 1-2's. He used to circle around the guy while jabbing. And he used to change the direction he's moving in with a sudden single shuffle.