was dempsey a bum?

[SABBATH]

When did I say Chuvalo had merely a good chin? I said Marciano was the one who only had a very good chin, Chuvalo's is up there with Cobb, Mercer, Willard and the rest as what I'd describe as excellent, the cream of the crop. The very best..

Read your own quote.

Marciano had a great chin but Willard's was exceptional. Chuvalo good IMO

[Brockton Lip]

Read your own quote.

He means 'Chuvalo good' as in Willard's chin was along the same lines of Chuvalo.

[Kid Achilles]

I meant Chuvalo-good as his chin was at the same level of Chuvalo, which is basically the highest respects anyone can pay a fighter's chin.

[SABBATH]

I meant Chuvalo-good as his chin was at the same level of Chuvalo, which is basically the highest respects anyone can pay a fighter's chin.

I understand what you were trying to say now, but even still, Willard's resume is very weak, and his career brief when compared to Chuvalo's. Chuvalo is considered by most to have the greatest chin in heavyweight history, if not P4P All-Time. Other than getting smoked by Dempsey what else are you basing this opinion on?

[Kid Achilles]

Taking everything Jackson Johnson, Gunboat Smith and other noted hitters of the day could dish out, in an era where gloves were much smaller and thinner and yet he wasn't knocked down until the Dempsey fight despite being an inexperienced fighter who started at 30 and never fully realized his potential skill wise. He was in there with some very good hitters and really didn't even have Chuvalo's level of skill and experience to help him. The fact that after he recovered from that first round, even Dempsey couldn't put him down again for the duration of the fight.

I'll agree that Chuvalo's career was longer and he faced the more recognized names, but who's to say Chuvalo goes a career without going down if he has to fight in that era. If he's caught by Dempsey like Willard was, I'm not so sure he stays up. Foreman had him hurt bad but lacked the accuracy to put flush combinations together. Dempsey would be landing right on the chin, with full power, and he'd be doing it often.

I'm of the belief that no one in history, not Cobb, not Mercer, not Jeffries, not Marciano or anyone is going to stay upright if Dempsey hits them on the chin repeatedly. I'm not saying he'd knock all them down if they are allowed to fight on there all times but if you let them get caught and dazed like Willard was (in other words sticking them in Willards place after that first hook hurts him), Dempsey would knock them all down IMO.

[Sir_Jose]

Kid Achilles will suck off any fighter who fought in the black and white era, Its no use he wont listen to logic.


Just because guys were big doesn't mean they actually had talent.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Kid Achilles will suck off any fighter who fought in the black and white era, Its no use he wont listen to logic.


Just because guys were big doesn't mean they actually had talent.

Not to start trouble...but
your completely wrong..Kid Achilles is one of the most knowlegeable/ and most reputable posters on BS. I've never seen him favor any one era over another....He judges everyone fairly, and not to start trouble but he's probably seen 4x's as many fights as you have so don't say that he won't listen to logic because his logic is usually right....

[SABBATH]

Kid Achilles will suck off any fighter who fought in the black and white era, Its no use he wont listen to logic. Just because guys were big doesn't mean they actually had talent.

Willard was one of the least skilled heavyweight champs of all time. He was strong and durable which is about the best I can say for him. Oh yeah, he was tall.

[Kid Achilles]

Who is calling Willard talented? Actually it was his lack of talent and experience, and that fact that he never went down before Dempsey that makes me in such awe of his chin. If he had talent you could say "oh he was a big athletic boxer who fought from the outside and was rarely hit" but in fact he was hit, and hit hard, by some of the best punchers of his day.

Some of the best chins of all time belonged to guys who had less than stellar boxing ability and talent. In fact, that type of fighter proves his chin more often than not than the top guys who are rarely hit flush on the button. If a guy is rarely hit, can you really give him the same credit for having a chin as a guy who takes the best punches of everyone he fights? I don't think so.

Willard was underrated and a decent tall boxer with a good jab and hard right hand, but his greatest gifts were stamina and a chin. Great champion? Hell no. Good fighter who was tough as tough as they come? Definitely, as Lennox Lewis would say.

Do I know for a fact if Willard was JUST as tough as Chuvalo? No I don't, but I believe they had awesome chins approximately on the same level. Certainly both had better chins than Frazier, Marciano, Tyson and others who were tough but not AS tough.

[SABBATH]

Who is calling Willard talented?

Not me. That's why I said Willard was one of the least skilled heavyweight champs of all time.

"I never liked boxing. I hated it as I never hated a thing previously, but there was money in it." -Jess Willard

"I never really knew how to fight. I never could do anything to the other fellow in the way of damage. I simply couldn't do it"-Jess Willard

Legendary Champions by John Lardner p.188