Are we all deluded about Sugar Ray Robinson?

[kendom]

In short, yes.

It's been a custom to over glorify the history of the sport because it is indeed so rich. However, yes, people get blinded by it and will refuse to admit that they had flaws and could be beaten by people who came after them.

We all admit that Robinson had flaws as a fighter, his love of getting into a scrap and his defense that could have been better, however when people make rdiculous statemnets we just have to call them out on it, as this guy did

[Ray Corso]

Sugar Ray could box and fight thats what seperated him from most other boxers. He had options to choose from when facing different styles and had method and techniques that were all above average and actually was outstanding in most phases. He was tuff when he was in trouble and could knock out anyone with either hand and thats another huge difference that seperates him from all other boxers. Theres fighters that are capable with both hands but most boxers have one hand and one punch to rely on to hurt someone with. Sugar had ALOT of them! Just talk to the best boxing minds from that era and of this era and see what they say. Everyone can have an opinion and thats fine but to listen to someone who has NO experience in boxing suggest that Leonard could beat Sugar Ray is ridiculous, Leonard was a tremendous athlete who could box and fight pretty well, well enough to form a great career but stop and look at their historys. When your a full time boxer who has unbelievable longevity and actually maintained skills well beyond your prime thats very impressive. The active voices on this forum are to wrapped up in winning & losing and forget that competing and have dignity is what the greats are all about. I just posted on another thread that Sugarman won 100 bouts in a row!!! You can fight your sister 100 times and lose at least 12 times. Then theres a few on these threads that couldn't win one! To see and read all the info thats right in front of you and not be able to understand greatness pretty much explains why some opinions have no merit. There is right and wrong along with proper techniques and willingness to WIN. TV ruined boxing as it was and the lack of willingness is apparent now. Its plain to see with the Mayweather vs Pacman disgrace. When both people have an opportunity to earn 50 million and GIVE the FANS what they'd like to see theres something very wrong with BOTH people. Forget the politics and good ol' boy BS if those fellows want to fight it would be ON!
Now think back to Sugarman vs the Bull no one wanted to fight them and thats a TRUE STATEMENT not a movie plot so they fought each other and other than the last fight which got to be one sided the others were brutal fights and both of them disliked each other but the respect was high!! Wheres the RESPECT factor in Mayweather vs Pacman? Businessmen not real fighters! Ray Corso

[them_apples]

IMO Robinsons skills just fit nicely inside the 4 Hagler, Hearns, SRL, Duran.

They all had a chance of beating each other. SRR is not better than those 4, he's simply on that level. His competition was not as good as those 4.

Even Duran, if anyone just compares his height too Lamotta and assumes he loses to SRR is ******. Duran had incredible defense, was explosive and a slippery counter puncher. As well as having heavy hands. Look at Duran in his early days at WW. a Monster. SRR by Ud however, close fight, maybe Sd.

Hagler, Hagler IMO, too strong. He'd beat Robinson in a good fight. Look what he did to Hearns. Even look what an aging Hagler did to SRL. I don't see SRR having the defense game that ARL had in that fight, it would become a war and Hagler chin was on Lamottas level only Hagler had incredible skill and good punching power. He was a southpaw too. Hagler by Ud or late stoppage.

Leonard, He seems like a bad matchup for SRR. Only because he's better than SRR main strengths. Speed and boxing ability. They both got good feet, SRL has better feet. And better technique. Superior defense. SRR has that chin and incredible heart, better punching power. Don't see it being enough. SRL was a highly, highly skilled boxer. SRL by Ud.

Hearns, if he hit SRR flush he'd put him away. It could happen. I'd bank on SRR actually weathering the storm and catching Tommy though. SRR by mid to late stoppage.

The later era was quite good too. A little more one dimensional but it could produce some good fights too. DLH at his peak is underrated.

[Ray Corso]

them_apples in all honesty you have no idea how Sugar Ray punched you think hes light handed like Leonard, your wrong. He moved solid fighters when he landed and thats a key in punching power to be able to move your opponent. Leonard was not faster with his feet or hands, the shoe shine bull **** don't count when the bell rings. As for opponents Leonard fought a handfull of fights and other than Hearns and then waiting for Hagler to get older never fought anyone other than Duran who at his best was a lightweight. When you fight 200 fights that what real fighters did. Leonards record could have been accomblished in 3 years by Sugarman. Theres no comparison when it comes to the greatest boxer of all time when the ALL Time greats say its Sugarman theres a reason, experience has merit idol dreams doesn't. All respects I disagree completely with you. Ray

[Barn]

them_apples in all honesty you have no idea how Sugar Ray punched you think hes light handed like Leonard, your wrong. He moved solid fighters when he landed and thats a key in punching power to be able to move your opponent. Leonard was not faster with his feet or hands, the shoe shine bull **** don't count when the bell rings. As for opponents Leonard fought a handfull of fights and other than Hearns and then waiting for Hagler to get older never fought anyone other than Duran who at his best was a lightweight. When you fight 200 fights that what real fighters did. Leonards record could have been accomblished in 3 years by Sugarman. Theres no comparison when it comes to the greatest boxer of all time when the ALL Time greats say its Sugarman theres a reason, experience has merit idol dreams doesn't. All respects I disagree completely with you. Ray

I think it's unfair to say Leonard was light-handed.

[Ray Corso]

I watched Ray box since he was a J.O boxer in the ABF, I brought my team and allstar teams down to Maryland and Jersey for J.O. and Open class shows for years. Always competed at the Ohio State Fair Show and the Gloves (state, reg. an nationals) also the USA/ABF tourn. was the Region One coach a few times including the first few years at the olympic training center in Colo. Springs (first year was 82, I think) Mr. Nappi (bless his soul)was the National coach and I was the Region One coach. My teams included my son Ray Bright and a 15 year old heavyweight named Mike Tyson a few other good boxers too.
I don't know all of Leonards fights but other than his second fight in New Haven Conn. when he fought a retired lightweight who just got his nose fixed I don't remember a one punch knock out win. I might be wrong but his punches worked well in combination but he didn't have one punch power like Sugar Ray. I'm not knocking Leonard he was an Olympic and Pro Champ and all though the junior weight classes are nonsense he did fight the best of his era but he also fought very little. If you look at Sugarman fighing passed his prime and Leonard past his prime its a joke. Leonard fought guys his age Sugarman was fighting the up and coming kids who were hungry. Fellas it was a different time and the fighters back then had a different reason other than a purse they had enormous pride and wanted people to see they were the baddest in the world, I just don't see that anymore. Leonard had some of that and his lodd to Duran enabled him to grow as a fighter but hes no match for the Sugarman. He would do well through the early rounds and be competitive too but then his best attributes would be tuned against him and when your best isn't working and your being counter with movement and punches by a man who can hurt you your will changes thats what I don't see in good fighters today. They don't impose their will and take over the fight, I guess its talents lost but I do see some fellows that do have it. They fight as if they've been paid already and their pride is very small. Its just my observation, I'm not real old but I was raised in this sport and taught by some very good and knowledgable folks.
Did you see the fight were Sugarman KOs Carmen Bassillo by stepping back and catching him with his head lowered and Sugarmans left hook drops him. Thats the best I've seen and what makes it the best is that its Bassillo another Monster guy with guts and grit like few others ever had. Imagine what a "pay perview" might ring in today with a Bull vs Sugarman main go!!!!
Vegas would be rockin' Mayweather vs Pacman might be a 6 round opener!
Ray Corso

[DarkTerror88]

I pick Robinson. There might have been some more durable, more conidtioned, faster, stronger guys. But Robinson is the GOAT for the intangibles

He has much more experience than leonard (Which is a difficult feat) and although both found a way to dig deep and pull out in the end, i think Robinson cas a bigger shovel to dig down and pulls out the win in an all time classic.

[AntonTheMeh]

Hearns would outbox Robinson too. There isn't a 147 pound fighter in the history of the sport that could outbox Hearns to a decision. Not Robinson, Leonard, Naploes, Griffith, Rodriguez, no one.

Hearns is taller than Robinson; 2-3 inches at least.
Hearns is as fast as Robinson.
Hearns has 6 inch reach advantage over Robinson.
Hearns has a better jab, boxes at range better, uses his height and full reach better.
Hearns is also more powerful than Robinson.



All saying, just because Leonard got outboxed by Hearns means utterly zero, nil, nadda, nothing, zip when it comes to facing Robinson. Leonard and Robinson fight very, very, very similar. They have the same height, same reach, but Leonard has the advantage in speed, jab, footwork....ie. he's the better boxer and would be the one outboxing Robinson, not the other way around. Robinsons would have the power, inside advantage and would be landing the harder punches. What Robinson would need to do is fight fire with fire and try to win in the exchanges as Leonard is punching, much like Duran did, but obviously Robinson is much taller, greater reach etc than Duran.

However, all that aside, if there was someone that would beat Robinson at 147 it would definitely be Leonard for my liking. In fact I would easily put up the fight as even odds. I can just as easily see Leonard winning it as I can Robinson. I do believe that Leonard may have been the perfect foil to Robinson and would probably be one of the few to say that Leonard has a couple of advantages over Robinson that would put the fight in his favour just a little bit.

Robinson is the GOAT. No, he's not invincible, but he's shown by the fighters he's beat that he's got everything needed to beat any style. However, Leonard has all the same qualities, plus IMO he's just a little bit faster with a little bit better jab and his defence is better. I think he could outpoint Robinson.

I'm not going to get in to the specifics of this post because I'm being lazy right now. but this thread is about someones opinion regarding robinson and leonard. not hearns. and me saying leonard go outboxed by hearns is more relevant to the topic then you rambling on about hearns.

[F l i c k e r]

IMO Robinsons skills just fit nicely inside the 4 Hagler, Hearns, SRL, Duran.

They all had a chance of beating each other. SRR is not better than those 4, he's simply on that level. His competition was not as good as those 4.

Even Duran, if anyone just compares his height too Lamotta and assumes he loses to SRR is ******. Duran had incredible defense, was explosive and a slippery counter puncher. As well as having heavy hands. Look at Duran in his early days at WW. a Monster. SRR by Ud however, close fight, maybe Sd.

Hagler, Hagler IMO, too strong. He'd beat Robinson in a good fight. Look what he did to Hearns. Even look what an aging Hagler did to SRL. I don't see SRR having the defense game that ARL had in that fight, it would become a war and Hagler chin was on Lamottas level only Hagler had incredible skill and good punching power. He was a southpaw too. Hagler by Ud or late stoppage.

Leonard, He seems like a bad matchup for SRR. Only because he's better than SRR main strengths. Speed and boxing ability. They both got good feet, SRL has better feet. And better technique. Superior defense. SRR has that chin and incredible heart, better punching power. Don't see it being enough. SRL was a highly, highly skilled boxer. SRL by Ud.

Hearns, if he hit SRR flush he'd put him away. It could happen. I'd bank on SRR actually weathering the storm and catching Tommy though. SRR by mid to late stoppage.

The later era was quite good too. A little more one dimensional but it could produce some good fights too. DLH at his peak is underrated.

Good post.

[them_apples]

them_apples in all honesty you have no idea how Sugar Ray punched you think hes light handed like Leonard, your wrong. He moved solid fighters when he landed and thats a key in punching power to be able to move your opponent. Leonard was not faster with his feet or hands, the shoe shine bull **** don't count when the bell rings. As for opponents Leonard fought a handfull of fights and other than Hearns and then waiting for Hagler to get older never fought anyone other than Duran who at his best was a lightweight. When you fight 200 fights that what real fighters did. Leonards record could have been accomblished in 3 years by Sugarman. Theres no comparison when it comes to the greatest boxer of all time when the ALL Time greats say its Sugarman theres a reason, experience has merit idol dreams doesn't. All respects I disagree completely with you. Ray

I said he had heavy hands. lol

And moving your oponent is a sign of a push, not power. I don't know if you have boxed before but anyone who tries to "make the bag swing" is almost never a hard puncher.

And Leonard could ****. I said SRR probably hit harder though.