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I dont get Harry Greb's boxing Record

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    I dont get Harry Greb's boxing Record

    Just looking at Harry Greb's record at boxrec & it has his record 103-8-3 draws then it has another set of record called NEWSPAPER DECISIONS:

    157-12-15 draws.

    What is that?

    How can we accurately judge a fighter we have not seen fight?

    #2
    Originally posted by The Hate Giver View Post
    Just looking at Harry Greb's record at boxrec & it has his record 103-8-3 draws then it has another set of record called NEWSPAPER DECISIONS:

    157-12-15 draws.

    What is that?

    How can we accurately judge a fighter we have not seen fight?
    Newspaper decisions were quite a feature in that era, no decision was made by the referee so they went with the majority of newspapers reporting.
    Re judging a fighter you haven't seen you just have to take a view maybe read some writers who did see them and whose opinion you respect and also take into account fighters that they beat who you have seen. Regarding Greb there is a fair bit of footage of Tunney, Walker and Loughran floating around tha shows them to be great fighters so any figter holding wins over them must himself have been pretty good, no?

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by The Hate Giver View Post
      Just looking at Harry Greb's record at boxrec & it has his record 103-8-3 draws then it has another set of record called NEWSPAPER DECISIONS:

      157-12-15 draws.

      What is that?

      How can we accurately judge a fighter we have not seen fight?
      That's a big problem. Another problem is judging early 20th C fighters from their film as the film from back then was terrible. Recently, for example, there were a few threads in NSB about the Klitschko-Chambers fight. Some people were saying that Klitshcko's hook missed Chamber's head. The problem was in the video.

      If we have problem with 21st C video showing the true story imagine the problems that exist in judging fighters from 100 years ago.

      Comment


        #4
        I can see where the TP is coming from, because I don't think i've ever seen any two listings for Greb that tally up the same.. They all have 299 as a career total, but the W L D statistics always differ.. He fought nearly all of his opponents more than once, some of them 5 or 6 times, and with the exception of Tunney and Flowers who he beat 1 fight a piece, (and Kid Norfolk - 1 win each) he had the better of every exchange..
        As for factual information on how good he was, Gene Tunney had to spend a week in bed after losing to him.. He comfortably beat Willie Meehan at least twice, who had the better of Jack Dempsey over 4 fights, aswell as at least 4 victories over Bill Brennan, who'd also lasted 15 with Dempsey.. Although only a middleweight, I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest he may have beaten Dempsey too.. A list of the fighters he holds wins over is mind boggling.. Here's the one's I know about:-

        Tiger Flowers - world MW
        Tommy Loughran - world LHW champ
        Maxie Rosenbloom - world LHW champ
        Mike McTigue - world LHW champ
        Al McCoy - world MW champ
        Mickey Walker - world MW champ
        Johnny Wilson - world MW champ
        Battling Levinsky - world LHW champ
        Jack Dillon - world LHW champ
        Jack Delaney - world LHW champ
        Battling Levinsky - world LHW champ
        Frank Moody - British MW & LHW champ
        Roland Todd - British MW champ
        Gene Tunney - world HW champ
        Jack London - British HW champ
        Willie Meehan - HW contender
        Kid Norfolk - HW contender
        Bill Brennan - HW contender

        I'm sure i may have forgotten some too, and there's also a few NC's against top fighters (Mike O'Dowd, a very underrated MW champ falls into this category) but to say that he could have owned the LHW division is a massive understatement..
        Last edited by mickey malone; 03-29-2010, 01:01 AM.

        Comment


          #5
          There is also some contention as to the 5 fights with Tunny. Although the official score is 4-1 Tunny, many people believe that Greb deserved the decision in 2 or 3 of those fights. There is no dis*****g the outcome of the final fight though when Tunny won a decisive victory.

          Greb was thought to be blind in one throughout all five fights.

          Comment


            #6
            Yes, Greb was blind in one eye for the better part of his career. The only footage that exists of him, as I recall, is some training and sparring footage, which really doesn't prove much.

            His win over Tunney, I'd say, is probably his most significant one.

            Comment


              #7

              (1) – Hall of Famer – World Heavyweight Champion – Beat Dempsey twice
              (4) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
              (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
              (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
              (2) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
              (6) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
              (2) – World Light Heavyweight Champion
              (1) – Hall of Famer – World Welterweight & Middleweight Champion
              Hall of Famer – World Champion Middleweight Champion
              (1) – Hall of Famer
              (2) – Hall of Famer – Went 15 rounds with Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
              (1) – Hall of Famer
              (2) – Hall of Famer - Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
              Hall of Famer as a trainer
              (2) – World Middleweight Champion
              (2) – World Middleweight Champion
              (3) – World Middleweight Champion
              (1) – Claimed World Middleweight Champion
              (2) – Beat Dempsey twice
              (2) – Top Heavyweight
              (4) – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
              - Defeated four world champions in his career




















              Last edited by hhascup; 03-29-2010, 03:48 PM.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by hhascup View Post

                (1) – Hall of Famer – World Heavyweight Champion – Beat Dempsey twice
                (4) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
                (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
                (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
                (2) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
                (6) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
                (2) – World Light Heavyweight Champion
                (1) – Hall of Famer – World Welterweight & Middleweight Champion
                Hall of Famer – World Champion Middleweight Champion
                (1) – Hall of Famer
                (2) – Hall of Famer – Went 15 rounds with Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
                (1) – Hall of Famer
                (2) – Hall of Famer - Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
                Hall of Famer as a trainer
                (2) – World Middleweight Champion
                (2) – World Middleweight Champion
                (3) – World Middleweight Champion
                (1) – Claimed World Middleweight Champion
                (2) – Beat Dempsey twice
                (2) – Top Heavyweight
                (4) – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
                - Defeated four world champions in his career




















                In my opinion there is no other boxer with such an amazing pedigree. That man would most likely have been world LHW and world HW champion had he been given a shot at those titles, despite only weighing 160lbs.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by EzzardFan View Post
                  In my opinion there is no other boxer with such an amazing pedigree. That man would most likely have been world LHW and world HW champion had he been given a shot at those titles, despite only weighing 160lbs.
                  I'll co-sign that..

                  Thanks to Henry for the complete list of his stunning resume.. I knew there might be the odd 1 or 2 i'd forgotten lol..

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by hhascup View Post

                    (1) – Hall of Famer – World Heavyweight Champion – Beat Dempsey twice
                    (4) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
                    (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
                    (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
                    (2) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
                    (6) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
                    (2) – World Light Heavyweight Champion
                    (1) – Hall of Famer – World Welterweight & Middleweight Champion
                    Hall of Famer – World Champion Middleweight Champion
                    (1) – Hall of Famer
                    (2) – Hall of Famer – Went 15 rounds with Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
                    (1) – Hall of Famer
                    (2) – Hall of Famer - Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
                    Hall of Famer as a trainer
                    (2) – World Middleweight Champion
                    (2) – World Middleweight Champion
                    (3) – World Middleweight Champion
                    (1) – Claimed World Middleweight Champion
                    (2) – Beat Dempsey twice
                    (2) – Top Heavyweight
                    (4) – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
                    - Defeated four world champions in his career




















                    Re the win over Norfolk, I wonder why the IBHOF has it the other way around: "Norfolk dropped the “Human Windmill” in the first round and captured the 10 round newspaper decision"?

                    Does BoxRec, where the fight is listed as a win for Greb, have one group of historians/experts who votes in Greb's favour - while another group at IBHOF reaches the opposite conclusion (after reviewing the same newspaper reports, I presume)? Seems strange to me... and if the fight was that close, would a draw not be a fair result?

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