So What do you lot think of Mike Tyson

[ROSS CALIFORNIA]

I cut your post to save some room so don't take offense.


The whole bully thing doesn't always work. Foreman was seen as a bully and Frazier wasn't...yet it was Foreman that kicked the **** out of Frazier despite Frazier having no fear of Foreman...and actually, Foreman was the one that was scared.

I've always said Tyson had to do what he had to do because of his size:
5'11, 215+ going up against the new look Super-HWs or the start of it.
Tyson was seen as Godzilla yet it was Godzilla that was looking up because he was smaller. This is why Tyson always had to be in tip-top shape and stay active because the moment he slipped, he was going to be vulnerable for the taking.
Being active and being in great shape helped him a lot...it was key. Fighting Taller and Heavier opponents that could also be stronger than you is hard to deal with.
It's also why I think he may have started out so fast to see if he could get the KO early as well as having some insurance by taxing the body hard just in case that opponent isn't KO'd early. At least if the fighter is still standing, his legs and "will" can be cracked so that the Taller/Heavier Man no longer has the advantage through the rest of the fight.


I put a nice quote by Tyson in my sig: "I don't try to intimidate anybody before a fight," Tyson said. "That's nonsense. I intimidate people by hitting them." ~Tyson


There is a video with Steve Lott talking about Tyson's style and how his style basically made the opponents confused and then end up folding.
So the opponent would throw a punch, Tyson would make them miss, counter with his own punch or barrage of punches and land hard....the opponent would try again, miss, and Tyson would strike again and land hard...and this would go on not much longer and the opponent would basically be confused and close up shop.

It's not exact so maybe I'll go search for the video later if it is still on youtube. It's in one of the documentaries.


I also like to throw in a little quote from Floyd Patterson which sums up why Tyson fell off: "Remember what got you there" ~Floyd Patterson.
That's Patterson's response after being asked to give advise to Tyson after Tyson's loss to Douglas.

I also read in an S.I. article that said Patterson offered to train Tyson for free but there was no response. Not sure Tyson ever heard about it or maybe King didn't want any part of it. Don't know...but it would have been interesting for them to Team up since Patterson knew the style, knew Cus well, was a person of character that you can trust, etc.

Yes, I know all the interviews you are talking about. It was Patterson on ESPN after the Douglas fight and I remember that interview with Steve lot well also. You were close enough on that one. I agree with you on a lot of that. Tyson should have taken Patterson on his team but he wanted to be surrounded in crap, so crap is what he got. Tyson is the biggest let down in boxing history, IMO, but there's no denying how good he was at his best.

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE=RossCA;6780005]

I guess you would have had to of fallowed his career like I did to know what happened to him. It was more than just a coincidence that he began losing under a new team. So using Douglas as an example is something I have to disagree with. The mental toughness was there before but its hard to prove that. One example we can go by is when Toney Tucker rocked him in the first round. Tyson kept coming just as fast as before, it didn't slow his attack at all. When Holyfield hit him in the first round, who wasn't a big puncher to begin with and didn't rock Tyson like Tucker did, he reacted a lot different. Using the Douglas and Holyfield fights as examples of how he was is just as bad as using the Lewis and Danny Williams fight to gage how good he was. None of those examples were a focused prime Tyson, and thats all there is to it.

Having a good chin is not the same as being mentally tough. When Mike didn't get his way he lost focus and took beatings. In most of his toughest fights and his opponent wasn't intimidated, He didn't know how to persevere. This is well documented.

And I followed Mike's career very closely my friend.

[paulf]

One of the greatest. He made Boxing in the 80s.

[Benny Leonard]

[QUOTE=JAB5239;6786285]

Having a good chin is not the same as being mentally tough. When Mike didn't get his way he lost focus and took beatings. In most of his toughest fights and his opponent wasn't intimidated, He didn't know how to persevere. This is well documented.

And I followed Mike's career very closely my friend.

Well I don't think we will really know for sure since Mike's losses also came after he stopped being what made him Champion in the first place.

A big part of Mike's success was the system he was in...and really needed to be in because of his size compared to his opponents.

One of the things I do mention is that Tyson, because he needed a lot of help from Kevin Rooney, to train him properly and give him the game-plan and even guide him through matches...young or not....Tyson isn't on the level of other greats like Jack Johnson and Ali who looked like true Generals who could come up with their own game-plan and could rely more on themselves. Tyson was a soldier first. Now maybe he would have matured further had he continued to take the right steps forward because after 10 years of doing something, isn't that the time of mastering something or at least feeling more comfortable for an elite level person?
He did start to look more settled in leading up to Spinks...and looked relaxed despite outside distractions against Spinks.

But I'm never too hard on him for relying on Rooney because other fighters have relied too on their trainers.

Tyson only had 1 loss pre-prison.

He did weather the storm after being hurt by Frank Bruno and came back to win by KO.
Ruddock wasn't scared at all of Tyson and threw bombs at Tyson...even hurt him...but Tyson fought through it and won.

After Prison?
Hell, we saw what 3 years did to Ali physically when he came back out of exile...now add Jail to all this and feeling wrongfully accused for going....that's going to mess you up both mentally and physically.
And also never training properly again doesn't help...which we can put on him.

Yes, fault is with Tyson for many things but there are a lot of questions I feel we really don't know completely.

People talk about his heart: well he did show heart...even after he wasn't training properly...both mentally and physically. You need both to be in this game at such a high level.

Character: when he lost to Douglas he did ask for the rematch several times and didn't get it. He didn't cry about it...he just wanted the rematch.
When he didn't get it, he fought to get it back which led him to Ruddock who he fought twice because some people thought the first bout was an early stoppage.
Then he was set to face Holyfield...but went to jail.
Came out of prison, and despite not looking like he wanted to be a fighter, still pushed through it for personal reasons.

Tyson may have had a lot of problems, made many mistakes and choices that sabotaged his own career...and couldn't come up with answers on how to deal with some things...but he does have more Character and Heart than a lot of people give him credit for.


Just remember: Tyson could have quit at anytime. Even as far back as a young kid asking for boxing lessons. Tyson wasn't some kid going to some gym where you pay to break a sweat. He was learning and fighting with a grown adult, Bobby Stewart, who wasn't going to let some punk kid push him around. And Tyson kept coming back for more. Went on to Catskill...and could have quit at anytime but didn't. He was a young teen sparring and fighting against grown men yet he didn't quit. He was pushed and pushed and pushed to build him up but he didn't quit. He turned pro and was pushed fast and hard. Cus died and Tyson didn't quit. He won the title at 20 years old. Do you realize how young that is and how much pressure that is for someone so young...especially in that era which was a media boom?

Then Jacobs died...his team falling apart...and Tyson kept moving forward all the way to Spinks. Same point when Tyson said it wasn't fun anymore. Having fun, especially for someone so young, can be vital...it's a big mental boost.
Time added forward to get to Spinks discussion:
Now this is where it starts to really get bumpy: Tyson was already going through a lot and was slow to get to the gym to prepare for the fight and when he did get to the gym, he wasn't focused. He was actually knocked down by Oliver McCall in sparring but did get back up and fought on according to McCall. Refocused to win, he destroyed Spinks.

But right after the Spinks fight, he threatened to retire. If he really wanted to retire, he should have...even if it would be hard to explain why such a young Man, Champion of the World, would want to do so.
Instead of retiring, he basically sabotaged his own career by getting rid of “what got him there”…Cayton and Rooney. This is the bad choice part and a slam against his legacy and rightfully so because Champions need to make the right choices even though many don’t. They need to know what to do even though many fighters don't have an answer. Fighters tend to be educated in fighting and not much else with many of them.

Tyson brought a lot on himself: he chose to get married; he chose to get rid of Cayton and Rooney; he chose to be ill-prepared for future fights and continue to fight on even without being properly trained; he chose to be who he was. That’s a shot at his legacy. Although we did get to see how tough he was. He could have quit at any point against Buster Douglas. It’s not like he was winning early. But he fought until the end, even having a short-glimpse of victory when knocking down Douglas. Even against Bruno, for all those that say he would fold if hurt…well…he got hurt and came back to win. Against Ruddock: fought hard against a much bigger man that wasn’t scared of him and landed bombs on him. Was hurt, and won.

Tyson wasn’t perfect. But for some to say he wasn’t tough or didn’t have any heart….come on...

[Benny Leonard]

Yes, I know all the interviews you are talking about. It was Patterson on ESPN after the Douglas fight and I remember that interview with Steve lot well also. You were close enough on that one. I agree with you on a lot of that. Tyson should have taken Patterson on his team but he wanted to be surrounded in crap, so crap is what he got. Tyson is the biggest let down in boxing history, IMO, but there's no denying how good he was at his best.

Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong...maybe a little of both but I'll throw this out there:

"Tyson didn't know how to rule, he just knew how to destroy"

[tyger]

I follow Iron Mike since he destroyed D. Long in the early going. I used to be a big fan til King, Robbin Givens and her mom got hold of him. He started to slip skilwise and I almost seen the Douglas upset coming. After prison he wasn't the same and even though King got him some titles I knew he was not the fighter he once was. Additionally his poor sportsmanship in the ring and his behavior outside it made me change my view of him. But in the old days when he was with Jacobs and Rooney he was amazing.

[ROSS CALIFORNIA]

[QUOTE=Benny Leonard;6793980]

Well I don't think we will really know for sure since Mike's losses also came after he stopped being what made him Champion in the first place.

A big part of Mike's success was the system he was in...and really needed to be in because of his size compared to his opponents.

One of the things I do mention is that Tyson, because he needed a lot of help from Kevin Rooney, to train him properly and give him the game-plan and even guide him through matches...young or not....Tyson isn't on the level of other greats like Jack Johnson and Ali who looked like true Generals who could come up with their own game-plan and could rely more on themselves. Tyson was a soldier first. Now maybe he would have matured further had he continued to take the right steps forward because after 10 years of doing something, isn't that the time of mastering something or at least feeling more comfortable for an elite level person?
He did start to look more settled in leading up to Spinks...and looked relaxed despite outside distractions against Spinks.

But I'm never too hard on him for relying on Rooney because other fighters have relied too on their trainers.

Tyson only had 1 loss pre-prison.

He did weather the storm after being hurt by Frank Bruno and came back to win by KO.
Ruddock wasn't scared at all of Tyson and threw bombs at Tyson...even hurt him...but Tyson fought through it and won.

After Prison?
Hell, we saw what 3 years did to Ali physically when he came back out of exile...now add Jail to all this and feeling wrongfully accused for going....that's going to mess you up both mentally and physically.
And also never training properly again doesn't help...which we can put on him.

Yes, fault is with Tyson for many things but there are a lot of questions I feel we really don't know completely.

People talk about his heart: well he did show heart...even after he wasn't training properly...both mentally and physically. You need both to be in this game at such a high level.

Character: when he lost to Douglas he did ask for the rematch several times and didn't get it. He didn't cry about it...he just wanted the rematch.
When he didn't get it, he fought to get it back which led him to Ruddock who he fought twice because some people thought the first bout was an early stoppage.
Then he was set to face Holyfield...but went to jail.
Came out of prison, and despite not looking like he wanted to be a fighter, still pushed through it for personal reasons.

Tyson may have had a lot of problems, made many mistakes and choices that sabotaged his own career...and couldn't come up with answers on how to deal with some things...but he does have more Character and Heart than a lot of people give him credit for.


Just remember: Tyson could have quit at anytime. Even as far back as a young kid asking for boxing lessons. Tyson wasn't some kid going to some gym where you pay to break a sweat. He was learning and fighting with a grown adult, Bobby Stewart, who wasn't going to let some punk kid push him around. And Tyson kept coming back for more. Went on to Catskill...and could have quit at anytime but didn't. He was a young teen sparring and fighting against grown men yet he didn't quit. He was pushed and pushed and pushed to build him up but he didn't quit. He turned pro and was pushed fast and hard. Cus died and Tyson didn't quit. He won the title at 20 years old. Do you realize how young that is and how much pressure that is for someone so young...especially in that era which was a media boom?

Then Jacobs died...his team falling apart...and Tyson kept moving forward all the way to Spinks. Same point when Tyson said it wasn't fun anymore. Having fun, especially for someone so young, can be vital...it's a big mental boost.
Time added forward to get to Spinks discussion:
Now this is where it starts to really get bumpy: Tyson was already going through a lot and was slow to get to the gym to prepare for the fight and when he did get to the gym, he wasn't focused. He was actually knocked down by Oliver McCall in sparring but did get back up and fought on according to McCall. Refocused to win, he destroyed Spinks.

But right after the Spinks fight, he threatened to retire. If he really wanted to retire, he should have...even if it would be hard to explain why such a young Man, Champion of the World, would want to do so.
Instead of retiring, he basically sabotaged his own career by getting rid of “what got him there”…Cayton and Rooney. This is the bad choice part and a slam against his legacy and rightfully so because Champions need to make the right choices even though many don’t. They need to know what to do even though many fighters don't have an answer. Fighters tend to be educated in fighting and not much else with many of them.

Tyson brought a lot on himself: he chose to get married; he chose to get rid of Cayton and Rooney; he chose to be ill-prepared for future fights and continue to fight on even without being properly trained; he chose to be who he was. That’s a shot at his legacy. Although we did get to see how tough he was. He could have quit at any point against Buster Douglas. It’s not like he was winning early. But he fought until the end, even having a short-glimpse of victory when knocking down Douglas. Even against Bruno, for all those that say he would fold if hurt…well…he got hurt and came back to win. Against Ruddock: fought hard against a much bigger man that wasn’t scared of him and landed bombs on him. Was hurt, and won.

Tyson wasn’t perfect. But for some to say he wasn’t tough or didn’t have any heart….come on...

BTW Benny, that wasn't my quote. Not sure why my name came out on there but I see the other name above it. I agree with this post 100% and couldn't have put it better.

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE=Benny Leonard;6793980]

Well I don't think we will really know for sure since Mike's losses also came after he stopped being what made him Champion in the first place.

A big part of Mike's success was the system he was in...and really needed to be in because of his size compared to his opponents.

One of the things I do mention is that Tyson, because he needed a lot of help from Kevin Rooney, to train him properly and give him the game-plan and even guide him through matches...young or not....Tyson isn't on the level of other greats like Jack Johnson and Ali who looked like true Generals who could come up with their own game-plan and could rely more on themselves. Tyson was a soldier first. Now maybe he would have matured further had he continued to take the right steps forward because after 10 years of doing something, isn't that the time of mastering something or at least feeling more comfortable for an elite level person?
He did start to look more settled in leading up to Spinks...and looked relaxed despite outside distractions against Spinks.

But I'm never too hard on him for relying on Rooney because other fighters have relied too on their trainers.

Tyson only had 1 loss pre-prison.

He did weather the storm after being hurt by Frank Bruno and came back to win by KO.
Ruddock wasn't scared at all of Tyson and threw bombs at Tyson...even hurt him...but Tyson fought through it and won.

After Prison?
Hell, we saw what 3 years did to Ali physically when he came back out of exile...now add Jail to all this and feeling wrongfully accused for going....that's going to mess you up both mentally and physically.
And also never training properly again doesn't help...which we can put on him.

Yes, fault is with Tyson for many things but there are a lot of questions I feel we really don't know completely.

People talk about his heart: well he did show heart...even after he wasn't training properly...both mentally and physically. You need both to be in this game at such a high level.

Character: when he lost to Douglas he did ask for the rematch several times and didn't get it. He didn't cry about it...he just wanted the rematch.
When he didn't get it, he fought to get it back which led him to Ruddock who he fought twice because some people thought the first bout was an early stoppage.
Then he was set to face Holyfield...but went to jail.
Came out of prison, and despite not looking like he wanted to be a fighter, still pushed through it for personal reasons.

Tyson may have had a lot of problems, made many mistakes and choices that sabotaged his own career...and couldn't come up with answers on how to deal with some things...but he does have more Character and Heart than a lot of people give him credit for.


Just remember: Tyson could have quit at anytime. Even as far back as a young kid asking for boxing lessons. Tyson wasn't some kid going to some gym where you pay to break a sweat. He was learning and fighting with a grown adult, Bobby Stewart, who wasn't going to let some punk kid push him around. And Tyson kept coming back for more. Went on to Catskill...and could have quit at anytime but didn't. He was a young teen sparring and fighting against grown men yet he didn't quit. He was pushed and pushed and pushed to build him up but he didn't quit. He turned pro and was pushed fast and hard. Cus died and Tyson didn't quit. He won the title at 20 years old. Do you realize how young that is and how much pressure that is for someone so young...especially in that era which was a media boom?

Then Jacobs died...his team falling apart...and Tyson kept moving forward all the way to Spinks. Same point when Tyson said it wasn't fun anymore. Having fun, especially for someone so young, can be vital...it's a big mental boost.
Time added forward to get to Spinks discussion:
Now this is where it starts to really get bumpy: Tyson was already going through a lot and was slow to get to the gym to prepare for the fight and when he did get to the gym, he wasn't focused. He was actually knocked down by Oliver McCall in sparring but did get back up and fought on according to McCall. Refocused to win, he destroyed Spinks.

But right after the Spinks fight, he threatened to retire. If he really wanted to retire, he should have...even if it would be hard to explain why such a young Man, Champion of the World, would want to do so.
Instead of retiring, he basically sabotaged his own career by getting rid of “what got him there”…Cayton and Rooney. This is the bad choice part and a slam against his legacy and rightfully so because Champions need to make the right choices even though many don’t. They need to know what to do even though many fighters don't have an answer. Fighters tend to be educated in fighting and not much else with many of them.

Tyson brought a lot on himself: he chose to get married; he chose to get rid of Cayton and Rooney; he chose to be ill-prepared for future fights and continue to fight on even without being properly trained; he chose to be who he was. That’s a shot at his legacy. Although we did get to see how tough he was. He could have quit at any point against Buster Douglas. It’s not like he was winning early. But he fought until the end, even having a short-glimpse of victory when knocking down Douglas. Even against Bruno, for all those that say he would fold if hurt…well…he got hurt and came back to win. Against Ruddock: fought hard against a much bigger man that wasn’t scared of him and landed bombs on him. Was hurt, and won.

Tyson wasn’t perfect. But for some to say he wasn’t tough or didn’t have any heart….come on...

While I agree with much of what you say, in particularly Mikes toughness and heart, he never really exuded mental toughness like the Ali's, Louis', Marciano's or Fraziers. He could take a beating like a champ. I've often said his chin is underestimated. But when he couldn't find a way to win he fell apart.

When Mike knew he was in control, he was unstoppable. When he wasn't sure.......he lost more than not. And it isn't just that he lost, its how he lost. He caved in. To me that isn't the sign of a mentally tough fighter. Jmo of course.

[Benny Leonard]

While I agree with much of what you say, in particularly Mikes toughness and heart, he never really exuded mental toughness like the Ali's, Louis', Marciano's or Fraziers. He could take a beating like a champ. I've often said his chin is underestimated. But when he couldn't find a way to win he fell apart.

When Mike knew he was in control, he was unstoppable. When he wasn't sure.......he lost more than not. And it isn't just that he lost, its how he lost. He caved in. To me that isn't the sign of a mentally tough fighter. Jmo of course.

Well I might not be so quick to put Marciano's name on that list. I've said why before and have gotten negative feedback from some posters....but if you want to know why...just hit me up with a question on it.

But I do agree with Tyson: His confidence started to crack when things didn't go his way. It's also why Rooney was there to guide him...same reason why I take off General points.
When Rooney wasn't there to keep him on track between rounds and even during rounds with shouting out answers/numbers/commands...Tyson wasn't as effective as a fighter...which had to do with is confidence which is also built during training camp. It's when you are in tip-top shape, not just physically, but mentally because you are prepared that your confidence/heart is up high.

Anyway...have to go for now but I'll add to this post later on.



EDIT: just noticed...what is up with the quotes and who they are accredited too?

Eh...going to fix it myself


Fixed it.

[Benny Leonard]

[QUOTE=RossCA;6796148]

BTW Benny, that wasn't my quote. Not sure why my name came out on there but I see the other name above it. I agree with this post 100% and couldn't have put it better.

Yeah...just noticed that too...it just happened with me as well.

Manuel fix.