Why is Ray Leonard still outside the top 10 ever?

[RightCross94]

Ray was above all a smart, smart fighter

He rematched Duran soon after knowing Duran blew up in between fights, and knowing Duran would have to drop a lot of weight.

He waited till Hagler looked on the downside a little before fighting him

He only rematched Hearns after Hearns started looking past it in the fights before that.

And I won't even talk about the third Duran fight- Duran was 38 and it looked like Duran had concrete in his boots the way he plodded forward.

But it all backfired on Ray in the end, the time between fights finally caught up with him, he couldn't mix and match and pick the fights and take breaks forever, he deteriroated a little, and then made a mistake by dropping back down to 154 where he looked awful vs Norris. And then the Camacho fight where he was completely shot, that can't be held against him.

I don't want to blame him for any of this, boxing is a tough sport and it's good to have all the advantages in your favour, and the depth of comp Ray faced has to be acknowledged. Plus, not only did he pick the fights at the right times, but he was also a good tactician and he always came with a solid game plan in mind, and he did extensive homework on his opponents. Except the first Duran fight, where Ray assumed the shorter, smaller Duran could be out slugged and muscled around.

[Princemanspopa]

Hearns, during their fighting days and for most of their lives, hated Leonard with a passion. Kind of like Ali/Frazier. Got screwed in the rematch and hated Leonard for not making the rematch years earlier even though it was one of the most wanted and expected fights of that decade, if not the most wanted rematch.

Finally when it did happen though, Hearns gave him a beating but got screwed over badly because of his US of A media darling imagine. Hearns wasn't happy with it.

Still though, Leonard was arrogant. He is also rather truthful about his ring accounts today and tells it how it was, which is good to hear as many fighters don't and only say **** to protect their image and fight rep. He doesn't mind saying that Hearns beat him nowadays, though he certainly didn't say it back then, so I admire him a great deal for that. You won't find that many fighters of his caliber admit to a fight that he lost but got a BS corrupt decision in.

Like Chavez, he wouldn't admit that he lost to Whitaker.

Don't exaggerate, idiot.We have already established that you are a Duran apologist,still angry and bitter that his hero quit infront of a worldwide audience of which continues to be his most defining moment in a ring.

Thomas Hearns never hated Ray Leonard and he himself has even stated that he has never held a grudge against any man was very mellow in the post fight interview after their rematch.Leonard retired in 1982 and returned to the ring almost five years later(excluding Kevin howard),just a year after their first fight,so you claiming that Leonard ducked Hearns sounds good on paper,but when it comes from a bitter Duran apologist such as yourself,it holds no legitimacy.I do know that Roberto Duran never retired at the time that Rodolfo Gonzalez wanted to unify the titles,but that becomes lost to the apologists.

[Princemanspopa]

He rematched Duran soon after knowing Duran blew up in between fights, and knowing Duran would have to drop a lot of weight..

Yes,Ray Leonard should have waited a year until Duran got his fat lazy arse into shape,I mean it's not like he could have controlled his eating habits for five months.You are parroting the same **** every Duran apologist makes,Leonard didn't fight Duran in between a fight,he fought him on a scheduled date.Duran lost because he couldn't deal with constant lateral movement,thus exposing Duran's inability to adapt.Leonard lost a decision in Montreal but his loss was never a gross mismatch like Leonard-Duran 2 was fast becoming.

He waited till Hagler looked on the downside a little before fighting him

Hmm,Hagler was coming of two wins over Hearns and Mugai,oth of whom were noted as two devestating punchers and Hagler knocked them out cold.Let's also try to put on that Leonard was somehow in his prime also.

He only rematched Hearns after Hearns started looking past it in the fights before that.

When else was he supposed to rematch Hearns you idiot? All Leonard was interested in after Hagler were a few titles and a few superfights,he got a few titles and got a few superfights,one of which included a rematch with Hearns.

And I won't even talk about the third Duran fight- Duran was 38 and it looked like Duran had concrete in his boots the way he plodded forward.

Duran was coming off his biggest win in six years,a win his apologists still gush over to this day(a controversial win at that).Leonard shut Duran out of the fight with ease and it wasn't remotely competitive and it was even playing fields as Leonard himsel was washed up

I don't want to blame him for any of this, boxing is a tough sport and it's good to have all the advantages in your favour, and the depth of comp Ray faced has to be acknowledged. Plus, not only did he pick the fights at the right times, but he was also a good tactician and he always came with a solid game plan in mind, and he did extensive homework on his opponents. Except the first Duran fight, where Ray assumed the shorter, smaller Duran could be out slugged and muscled around.

Translation - "I'm a moron,who in an attempt to appeal to the old bitter boxing bully boys,am going to parrot every last claim,every last accusation made against Ray Leonard and post into on a forum where all the other old itter boxing bully boys can post.If threads pop up on Ray Robinson,then I am going to gush over his career and claim that he was the greatest ever,even though the very same accuations that I made against Ray Leonard,does actually appeal to the p4p king Ray Robinson and how history covers up that he ducked virtually every great black fighter of his era."

[mickey malone]

It was kind of the other way around. But yes, this is definitely a reason he was looked upon with some disdain.

He was the first, and only, fighter to win five world titles in different weight divisions without ever fighting at one of those weights. The fight with LaLonde who was the LHW champion was held at the SMW (168) division and LaLonde, who struggled mightily just to make the 175 division already, was not allowed to come in a pound over the SMW limit. So essentially, it was a 175 pound title fight for the 175 pound championship but, as stipulated by the challenger, the 175 pound champion was not allowed to come in anywhere in his own divisions weight limit and was only allowed to compete for his own 175 pound title in a completely different weight division limit. Amazing

So, when Leonard won that SMW title he also won the LHW championship. The only fighter in history to win a world championship at a weight by fighting at a completely different, an smaller, weight and the only fighter in history to make a champion fight completely out of his weight class in another division entirely and yet win his title for a higher weight class.

Don't get confused by catch-weights. This wasn't a catch-weight, it was a SMW title fight that was also somehow for the LHW title, though neither fighter was able to leave the SMW limit.

Absolutely hilarious. I think Pac or Mayweather should go for the middleweight title to make more history but by making Pavlik come down to at the WW limit. They would still make history right?

Fascinating! Well explained Benny.. So Prima Donna Leonard completely ruined Lalonde's career with his cowardly demands..

It's a bit like saying, 'No way am I fighting him, unless he's sick & weak'

This has made me believe that the KD inflicted on Ray in that fight, which was quite a heavy one, would have more than likely been a KO, had Leonard not succeeded in corrupting the officials to help him cheat.. I mean, Why wasn't Lalonde allowed to dip his wraps in plaster then?.. Well it's the same thing isn't it?

What amazes me even more, is Lalonde must have agreed to all of this, maybe with the help of a little brown envelope, but nevertheless, obviously signed his own death warrant..
Can see the paper work now... I, Donny Lalonde, as WBC Light heavyweight champion of the world, hearby agree unreservedly to stop eating for a week in order to make myself cosiderably ill enough for Sugar Ray Leonard to take physical advantage & plunder my hard earned title.. Signed, D. Lalonde

If all of that's 100% Benny, which knowing you, it is.. Then Leonard should be outside of the top 50.. This has altered my views entirely, and answers the whole, 'why do people hate him?' thing perfectly.. The answer being, because he's an egotistical special needs fighter..

[blacklodge]

Right on to BennyST for the 168-175 debacle. They fought for LaLonde's 175 title, and the VACANT 168 title. Unprecidented. And garbage. But they let him do it, and LaLonde signed the paper. So did Duran, so did Hagler. I think it hurts Leonard's status though. And it should. Even for political purposes, Leonard, for example, should say he wanted the best performance from Duran to show he was better. Leave it to us to speculate. Instead, Leonard opened the door to give Duran's excuses (I can say that, I'm a Duran fan) for "No mas" more credibility, and the historical record essentially reflects it more than Leonard beating Duran with no asterisks. That's not to say that Leonard should be applauded for being honest, I think it was more ego than anything, wanting everyone to know just how uncannily smart and shrewd he was, which has boomeranged back onto him in many circles. Dumb PR move, if you ask me.
There's the Hagler issues that have been repeated ad nauseum (more bad PR from Leonard. Why would he admit Hagler kept telling him "Fight like a man, you little *****", and then say "NOooooooo"?), the 3rd Duran fight, or non-fight as it was, and the clear (I think) loss to Hearns in their 2nd fight.
Other ATGs have these kinds of backstories on their record as well. The Robinson-Maxim fight, for example, could have been taken very differently historically under different circumstances. If Robinson had gone on to lose his next fight at 160 and then retire, we might be questioning his heart, or something. Instead he went on to other great fights and now there tends to be a "gifting" to Robinson for a fight that he lost against Maxim, another asterisk. But since after Hearns I all you get from Leonard is skewed negotiated fights where the deck is stacked highly in his favor, not to mention all the primadonna stuff, and it has to hurt his status. Maybe that's unfair to Leonard, but he dug his own grave as far as that's concerned. Beating Benitez (people forget, that's huge), Hearns, Duran and Hagler seems to be enough in theory, but I still don't put him in my top 10. Or 20.

[blacklodge]

Hmm,Hagler was coming of two wins over Hearns and Mugai,oth of whom were noted as two devestating punchers and Hagler knocked them out cold.Let's also try to put on that Leonard was somehow in his prime also.
"

I don't think either Hagler or Leonard were at their best, for different reasons obviously, but I will say Leonard was a little more capable of executing his gameplan than Hagler would have been executing his best game plan (first he would have needed a game plan, however). I remember seeing how swollen Leonard's hands were after that fight, and thought if Hagler had not fought such a ****** fight and forced Leonard to work a little more he would have won easily. But I don't think Hagler was faded. Just hard headed, literally and figuratively.
But again, Leonard himself sowed the seeds for the kind of rationale that Hagler had slipped by spinning his name-dropping, primadonna tale of he, Michael J. Fox and Whoopi Goldberg hanging out in a hotel room after the Hagler-Mugabi fight, saying that Hagler had slipped and was ripe to be taken and that he was coming back to fight him.

[nachorjj]

yes in my opinion.
top 3

[BennyST]

Don't exaggerate, idiot.We have already established that you are a Duran apologist,still angry and bitter that his hero quit infront of a worldwide audience of which continues to be his most defining moment in a ring.

Thomas Hearns never hated Ray Leonard and he himself has even stated that he has never held a grudge against any man was very mellow in the post fight interview after their rematch.Leonard retired in 1982 and returned to the ring almost five years later(excluding Kevin howard),just a year after their first fight,so you claiming that Leonard ducked Hearns sounds good on paper,but when it comes from a bitter Duran apologist such as yourself,it holds no legitimacy.I do know that Roberto Duran never retired at the time that Rodolfo Gonzalez wanted to unify the titles,but that becomes lost to the apologists.

You're a weird little cookie.

Let me set you straight little fella. I don't give a flying **** that Duran quit. It doesn't bother me a jot. I don't know the guy, never met him and to me, he is just a good fighter. Like James Toney. Like Ray Leonard. Like Ike Quartey. Like Barrera or Pacquiao. I'll discuss things about him, but I will do that with all fighters.

Now, why did you actually bring him up? You are telling me that I'm the obsessed one and yet I didn't mention him at all? I was talking about Hearns and Leonard, not Duran.

Anyway. Now, one other thing, I don't think Leonard ducked Hearns nor did I ever say he did. I said he didn't want to give him a rematch. That's very different than ducking someone. Stop being so irrational like a little twelve year old girl and stop putting things into words that I have not even said.

How can Leonard duck Hearns when he has already fought and beaten him by TKO? You are misconstruing what I am saying and you also seem to think that I dislike Leonard. Quite the contrary young fella. Quite the contrary. I think he's one of the greatest warriors and one of the most exciting, brilliant fighters I've ever seen. But, he was a very smart business too. He had already beat Hearns and having a rematch was obviously risky so he decided against it, while taking other very hard fights to accomplish more elsewhere.

Yes, I know that Leonard retired. In between the first Hearns and his retirement, which was completely understandable, the whole world still clamored for the rematch. I expect you're too young to remember any of this. They wanted the fight after Hagler, after Howard, and after Finch. It was a non stop on-going fight that everyone wanted made, most of all Tommy Hearns.

Look mate, you're missing the point of my post anyway. I'm not degrading Leonard at all. I am talking about history in general and the state of things at the time. What the fans wanted etc etc etc. I am not like you. I don't slag off a fighter and say he is ducking someone else. I have never said something like that about a fighter nor will I ever say that. It's a business for them and if they jump in the ring that's enough for me. I might not enjoy decisions that some fighters make but I'm not going to slag him off for it and I have never slagged off Leonard because he is one of my all time favourite fighters. I don't even believe that any fighter ducks another as you put it. They make business decisions one way or another. It's not about this cowardly concept of ducking, which is only in peoples minds. People like you.

Anyway, whatever your weird inferiority complex is, you're barking up the wrong tree. Hearns did hold a grudge against Leonard and I'm sure he doesn't anymore. I don't know why you think I'm making it up.

If I was a Duran apologist, as you so eloquently put it, what am I gaining by saying this? From your post, it seems as if you are accusing me of making some grudge up that Hearns had for Leonard to belittle Leonard because I am a supposed Duran 'apologist'? What sense does that even make? Do you even realise what you're trying to say? Do you understand how ludicrous that makes you sound?

I have no idea why you said that or what you are trying to achieve my saying it? Oh, and that Gonzalez discussion was already done. I don't care anymore. If you want me to say Duran ducked him then fine, he ducked him. If that will shut you up, then yes, he ducked him. Gonzalez was a huge threat and would have demolished him.

In summary: Leonard never ducked Hearns nor did he ever duck anyone. So, what you are saying is just wrong and I never said it and have never thought it. What I am saying is that Leonard had already won and could make either the same money, or very similar by fighting other people, without risking a possible loss against someone he had already knocked out. Very different to what you perceive as ducking and all that immature **** you think actually happens in boxing. Sad little mind.

Secondly, Hearns did have a grudge. If you think he didn't, fine. Doesn't matter either way to me. You just keep on thinking whatever thoughts you have young fella. Now, let's wait for the insulting, repetitive reply that states nothing new but just rants along these lines "You dumb Duran apologist. Haterz. LAMO. pwn! Money Mai rulez. PWN!"

[BennyST]

and how history covers up that he ducked virtually every great black fighter of his era."

God, another demented racist. I thought you were just a typical little ****. Now, most of it makes sense. You're just another boring little angry prick with no mind whatsoever, spewing BS thoughts on racist crap. I don't mind arguing with some people, but the closet racist's are just too inane, slow and pitiful to bother with.

Seriously kid, try learning something. Oh yeah, and was Robinson ducking himself or something? You're ****ting on Robinson for being the best black fighter in his, and every, era and yet you then claim he was ducking every other black fighter? You tried checking who the champions were? No, it was a conspiracy. They only wanted white champions, and on token black champion to beat them all because him beating them all showed white supre....Hold on?



Mate, get a life. Really. Go read some literature. Plant some trees, get a girlfriend, meet some nice people. Your mind might open up a little more to the world and its mysterious ways and you might forget your incessant racist rants and thoughts. It's not good for you. You think I'm some bitter apologist, you just wait until you're older and haven't gotten rid of these thoughts. I'm utterly serious when I say you will end up a horribly broken old man that has severe health issues, you will not have anyone that loves you, and you will hate everyone and everything and will think the world owes you something etc etc. It's not a good way to live young fella. Give it up. See the light.

[BennyST]

Fascinating! Well explained Benny.. So Prima Donna Leonard completely ruined Lalonde's career with his cowardly demands..

It's a bit like saying, 'No way am I fighting him, unless he's sick & weak'

This has made me believe that the KD inflicted on Ray in that fight, which was quite a heavy one, would have more than likely been a KO, had Leonard not succeeded in corrupting the officials to help him cheat.. I mean, Why wasn't Lalonde allowed to dip his wraps in plaster then?.. Well it's the same thing isn't it?

What amazes me even more, is Lalonde must have agreed to all of this, maybe with the help of a little brown envelope, but nevertheless, obviously signed his own death warrant..
Can see the paper work now... I, Donny Lalonde, as WBC Light heavyweight champion of the world, hearby agree unreservedly to stop eating for a week in order to make myself cosiderably ill enough for Sugar Ray Leonard to take physical advantage & plunder my hard earned title.. Signed, D. Lalonde

If all of that's 100% Benny, which knowing you, it is.. Then Leonard should be outside of the top 50.. This has altered my views entirely, and answers the whole, 'why do people hate him?' thing perfectly.. The answer being, because he's an egotistical special needs fighter..

In all honesty man (and yes, that is all 100% true), I have never taken that fight into any consideration nor his five title thing. I think it's pathetic, but it was just another publicity thing in Leonard's later career. He had already reached the zenith for me by beating the four other greats while only losing one of those fights.

I basically look upon his career up to Hagler. What he did after makes no difference to me, I think he was so special up to that point, and had beaten such fighters like Duran, Benitez, Hearns and Hagler that the rest is just kind of nothing. The LaLonde fight was just a trumped up piece of garbage fight all about fame, fake accomplishments and publicity. The actual fight itself was ok and it was a good hard fight in which Leonard performed well (I do think it might have been different at LHW but it still doesn't matter to me, and it might not have either) and won, dodgy or not.

It was everything before then that made up my mind.