The No Troll Joe Louis And Ray Robinson Appreciation Thread

[StarshipTrooper]

Show some love! The beauty of it is the Trolls can't respond to anything posted here

Poet

[0Rooster4Life0]

Both men achieved Great things in the ring, and helped Build the road for future Greats, Without Both men Boxing would not be the same.


Respect and Love for Both Fighters.

Legends Of The Ring.


BOTH MEN WERE CREDITS TO THERE RACE.......THE HUMAN RACE



Thank You For The Great Boxing Moments Guys.


ROOSTER

[ßringer]

I have nothing but respect for Robinson as a fighter. The man was the greatest to ever lace the gloves, and he will never be equaled, matched, or surpassed in that regard.

Joe Louis I have nothing but profound respect and admiration for. As a fighter, he was everything you want in a professional. And as a man, I deeply admire his courage, patriotism, humility, and sacrifice. A true hero, Louis was.

[StarshipTrooper]

Both men achieved Great things in the ring, and helped Build the road for future Greats, Without Both men Boxing would not be the same.

Respect and Love for Both Fighters.

Legends Of The Ring.

Thank You For The Great Boxing Moments Guys.

ROOSTER

[StarshipTrooper]

I have nothing but respect for Robinson as a fighter. The man was the greatest to ever lace the gloves, and he will never be equaled, matched, or surpassed in that regard.

Joe Louis I have nothing but profound respect and admiration for. As a fighter, he was everything you want in a professional. And as a man, I deeply admire his courage, patriotism, humility, and sacrifice. A true hero, Louis was.

[Southpaw16BF]

Two of the very very best. When Ray Robinson and Joe Louis fought in the prize ring they created magic that will live on for ever. When all time greats are talked about both come to mind. What a pair of fighters they were.

Sugar Ray Robinson has been named the greatest fighter of all time, pound for pound, by the International Boxing Research Organization, a reputable association of boxing historians, analysts and writers. Robinson certainly has all of the qualifications to be titled as the greatest of them all. The Sugar man possessed every asset of a great boxing master; grace, speed, balance, fantastic skill, pulverizing punching power, an indestructible chin, and an indomitable will. Further his competition is among the best of any fighter in any weight class. Robinson also had longevity to go along with a great ring record.

There are a number of ways to rate fighters in an all time sense, but it boils down to two important considerations. One is to judge the ability of a fighter. That is to ask who brings the most attributes to the ring. Rating fighters on talent is one method. The other is to rate fighters strictly on their ring record by weighing their accomplishments and quality of opposition. In either case Robinson is difficult to compare.

ABILITY

What other fighter could beat you more ways than could Sugar Ray Robinson? Ray could out box boxers and out punch punchers. He could do it inside or outside, going forward or backward. That cannot be said of any other all time great that received a first place vote in the IBRO poll. Not Harry Greb, not Bob Fitzsimmons, not Jack Dempsey, not Henry Armstrong, not Sam Langford. Nor could it be said of 4-5th place finishers Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis. Runner up Greb and 3rd place finisher Armstrong were primarily pressure fighters. Dempsey, Louis, Langford and top 10 finisher Roberto Duran could box and punch, but they could not “outbox” boxers with speed and agility. Ali could outbox punchers but he could not out punch punchers. Ali was also one dimensional in that he was strictly a head hunter and not a complete fighter. In terms of all around ability, hitting power and versatility, Robinson deserves the top spot.

Although not as fundamentally sound as Joe Louis, Robinson was more multifaceted. Louis was an economically sound boxer who wasted no movement, had a tight structure and threw short compact punches with precision and power. According to the boxing book that is how it is suppose to be done. Robinson transcended that by adding fluidity of movement and grace to his ring style. Sugar Ray was not the first fighter to fight in the elegant style that he possessed. What made Robinson so special was that he combined speed, balance and flash with devastating explosive power.

Men like Louis, Langford, and Dempsey could knock you out with one punch from either hand. So could Robinson. Ray could do it with his powerful left hook as he did against Gene Fullmer or with his perfect straight right as he did against Rocky Graziano. Joe Louis could throw triple left hooks with speed, power and accuracy that could destroy a man. Robinson could throw triple left hooks and triple right hooks that could do the same. Who else could do that and maintain frightening power?

Punch for punch Ray Robinson was one of boxing histories all time best punchers. Robinson once knocked out Gene Fullmer with a picturesque left hook while moving backwards displaying the one shot shock power of an all time puncher. The Ring ****zine rated him 11th among all the great punchers of history in their 2003 article the 100 greatest punchers of all time.

In terms of combination punching the two best fighters in history for speed, power, and accuracy are Joe Louis and Ray Robinson. Robinson worked some of the prettiest combinations ever seen and can be considered the best ever in this category. Robinson was also a great body puncher. In a comparison to some of the great Mexican body punchers of the recent era like Julio Cesar Chavez and Marco Antonio Barrera; who go to the body primarily around the opponents guard, Robinson punched up the middle as well as to the outside. Robinson was an aggressive, dexterous puncher with many weapons to choose from.

Killer instinct is the instrument the drives the wheel of destruction in many of the great fighters. Nat Fleischer once wrote that Robinson, for all his skill, could rip and tear like a Jack Dempsey. Some commentators have stated that Robinson was not a great defensive fighter. This is no doubt true. When one is aggressive and really goes after their opponent they are going to leave themselves open for counters. This is not always a bad thing. When Robinson was on the attack his opponents had to worry about his full battery of offensive weapons. Robinson’s defense was his irrepressible offense, although he used his footwork, height and reach to get away from trouble when necessary.

Robinson had a great chin and his will to win is among the best. Sugar Ray was never physically knocked out in more than 200 pro fights. One can see Robinson’s gritty determination in his films. He punishes his rivals as though he is upset that they would even think that they could compete with him. He was as determined and confident as any boxing champion in history.

Ray Robinson was the archetype of a complete fighter. If one combines his polished, grand boxing style with his powerful punching and cast iron chin with a will to win unsurpassed in the annals of boxing one has a perfect fighter.

RECORD

Five men can lay claim to having the best record in boxing history in terms of their accomplishments and quality of opposition. Those men are Harry Greb, Henry Armstrong, Benny Leonard, Muhammad Ali and Ray Robinson.

Harry Greb fought 14 world champions and 4 championship title claimants. He had wins against all of them. That means he faced and defeated 18 of 18 champions that he met in the ring at least once. Greb’s record reads like a who’s who of great fighters from the late teens and 20’s. His quality of opposition is unmatched defeating five world middleweight champions, seven world light-heavyweight champions and one future heavyweight champion. The names include, Mike McTigue, Jack Dillon, Battling Levinsky, Tiger Flowers, Tommy Loughran, Tommy Gibbons Jimmy Slattery, Maxie Rosenbloom, Mickey Walker and Gene Tunney. Although not much more than a middleweight he also won dozens of fights against heavyweights including matches against Bill Brennan and Billy Miske both of whom fought for the heavyweight title. Greb came in second in the IBRO poll based primarily on his exceptional ring record.

Henry Armstrong’s feats are amazing. During his peak run Hank was 59-1-1 with 51 knockouts against topflight competition, which included winning the featherweight, lightweight and welterweight world titles. Armstrong scored 27 straight knockouts during 1937-1938. He came within a hair’s breadth of winning titles in 4 major weight classes when he drew for the middleweight title in 1940 against reigning titleholder Ceferino Garcia, a fighter he had already beaten. Hank also made 20 successful defenses of the welterweight title, a record that still stands to this day. Armstrong’s accomplishments put him in the conversation when discussing the greatest fighter of all time. The one knock against Armstrong is that he lacked longevity and was at his peak for only a short time. Armstrong was a like a fire that burned so brightly that it quickly burned itself out.

[Southpaw16BF]

Benny Leonard faced the greatest line up of lightweight challengers in ring history. Benny a master boxer of the first order is one fighter who could compete with Robinson in the area of boxing skill and all around ability. His competition was also fierce. He defeated featherweight champions Johnny Kilbane and Johnny Dundee, lightweight champions Freddie Welsh, Willie Ritchie and Rocky Kansas. He defeated some great challengers such as Lew Tendler still considered one of the best fighters to never win a title as well as tough competitors such as Ritchie Mitchell, Patsy Cline, Joe Welling and left hook artist Charley White. Leonard retired undefeated as lightweight champion after 7 years although he did benefit somewhat from the no decision rules of the time.

Muhammad Ali beat the best competition in heavyweight history. As a three time champion he defeated Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton, and Leon Spinks. He also defeated hard hitting contenders such as Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers. Ali dominated nearly two decades of heavyweight boxing and must be considered among the best in the category of quality of opposition.

Ray Robinson’s achievements are no less impressive. Robinson amassed a peak professional record of 128-1-2 while winning the welterweight and middleweight titles. The only fighters to surpass Robinson’s peak won-loss record are Willie Pep’s 134-1-1 and perhaps Rocky Marciano’s 49-0, although neither faced close to Robinson’s quality of opposition.

Robinson went 40-0 as a pro before losing a decision to Jake Lamotta, a middleweight who outweighed him by nearly 16 pounds. He was unbeatable for the next eight years going on a 91 bout winning streak. His career record against Lamotta, the only man to ever beat a prime Robinson is 5-1. Lamotta outweighed him by an average of 12 pounds in all of their fights.

Overall Robinson defeated 10 Hall of Famer’s in his career; Jake Lamotta, Sammy Angott, Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan, Rocky Graziano, Randy Turpin, Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basilio. He also defeated some skilled challengers such as Tommy Bell who could have been champion in the modern era. Ray was undefeated as welterweight champion and won the middleweight title for a record 5 times.

Robinson should have won the middleweight tile for a 6th time but received a dubious draw against Gene Fullmer at age 39. The film clearly demonstrates that Robinson should have received the decision. Ray won the fight in the ring only to be robbed of the decision. Robinson’s longevity puts him among the 5 best geriatric champions of all time with Bob Fitzsimmons, Archie Moore, George Foreman and Bernard Hopkins.

Robinson was absolutely outstanding in rematches. He won rematches against 11 men before finally losing twice to the same fighter. No one ever beat him twice until he was 40 years old and had over 150 fights and even then they were two split-decisions against Paul Pender.

One should also consider that Robinson’s activity level made him sharper and more experienced than modern fighters. For example in 1946 the year he won the welterweight title Sugar Ray fought 16 times. In 1947 he fought 10 times. In 1949 he fought 13 times. In 1950 he fought 19 times. The other “Sugar Ray” Leonard only fought 40 pro fights in his entire career. Robinson’s total record is 175-19-6 2 NC with 109 kayo’s. 16 of his 19 losses came after his first comeback at age 34, 12 after the age of 40.

To sum it up, Robinson was the consummate professional fighter who possessed every physical asset; speed, agility, mobility, and tremendous punching power. He rates among a select few of the all time greats who could defeat fighters using their own best assets against them. Robinson, a true sharpshooter, easily rates among the best pound for pound punchers in history. Robinson is possibly the greatest combination puncher of all time. His quality of opposition is among the top five. Ray’s peak won-loss record is among the top three. Ray’s overall ring record and accomplishments also rate among the top three. Robinson is among the top five of all time in the category of longevity. Ray had all the intangibles, great experience, killer instinct, a tremendous chin and heart. When one adds it all up it is easy to see why the respected IBRO rated Sugar Ray Robinson as the greatest fighter of all time.

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from on .

[StarshipTrooper]

Two of the very very best. When Ray Robinson and Joe Louis fought in the prize ring they created magic that will live on for ever. When all time greats are talked about both come to mind. What a pair of fighters they were.

You know what? This thread is open to giving some love to ANY classic fighter people desire where they can do so without the Trolls trying to slime them!

Poet

[Southpaw16BF]

[IMG]//sports.espn.go.com/i/****zine/new/joe_louis.jpg[/IMG]

Joe Louis was the most powerful and fastest punching heavyweight boxer in ring history. His great hand speed, especially in combination, was awesome to behold. He had a powerful jab, threw every punch perfectly and with wasteless accuracy. His right cross, thrown short and straight, was sheer dynamite. The "Brown Bomber" never ducked anyone as his record 25 title defenses attests to. Of those 25 successful defenses, 21 were won by knockout, 17 of those were ten counts! 5 in the first round! He also knocked out six men who held the Heavyweight Championship of the World. From 1934 to 1949, when he first retired as champion, his record was 60-1 with 51 knockouts. He held the Heavyweight Championship for a record of nearly 12 years.

Louis had the perfect physique for a fighter with long, smooth muscles which gave him great speed and reflexes. Though overlaid with racism, one of the top sportswriters of the 30's, Grantland Rice, described Louis as a "brown cobra" and referred to his "blinding speed" as the "speed of the jungle" and the "instinctive speed of the wild" . Rice (In Mead, Sports Illustrated Sept. 16, 1985) also compared Louis to a "black panther stalking his prey" . His speed and power was explosive. Louis was a rare heavyweight who could throw a triple left hook with power as he did against Max Baer. In terms of hand speed, Louis, in his prime, ranks with the best in the division including Muhammad Ali.

Alan Clevens wrote, (Louis 1914-1981 p 4) "For a day or two after Joe Louis died, the TV networks flooded the airwaves with clips of Joe's fights. A young friend of mine who thought Larry Holmes was the last word marvelled, "I never saw anybody with hands that fast. God his hands were even faster than...than.."

"Go ahead and say it" he told him.

"...Ali's."

"Sure they were young man. Nobody in history had an offense like Louis. One punch was all Joe needed, but he never threw them one at a time. When Joe had an opponent hurt, veteran Louis watchers reached for their hats. He was the greatest "finisher" that ever lived! Joe shuffled forward, always the predator, behind a swift and powerful jab. And then the fireworks! Left hooks, the deadliest right hand ever seen, uppercuts...all thrown in deadly combinations."

As a puncher Louis had everything. When Joe first appeared on the scene he was hailed as (See Durant p. 99), "A ring rarity. A boxer-puncher with the fastest pair of hands and the hardest punch ever seen." He is without doubt the greatest combination puncher to ever lace on the gloves. No one could put their punches together as beautifully as did Louis. He threw every punch in the book with text book perfection, the jab, the hook, the cross, and the uppercut. He placed his punches accurately to vital points; the heart, the liver, behind the ear, under the floating rib, and to the chin. His punches were short, often travelling only inches, yet they landed with jolting power. In this extremely important category of punching efficiency Louis has no peer.

Louis was an extremley accurate puncher who wasted no motion and never threw a wild punch in his life. Detloff (2004) agrees saying , "All the blows in Joe Louis arsenal were so perfectly and precisely thrown every time that you get the sense watching him that he couldn't have been wild or sloppy if he tried."

Ring historian Gilbert Odd wrote, (The Great Champions, p 40), "Louis jab would snap a man's head back with sickening monotony until he wavered under the steady punishment, then he was speedily finished off with swift and accurate hooks from both hands, or a finely timed right cross that carried such knockdown force that few who took it could survive. Louis was ice cold in action, rarely wasted a punch and had an uncanny way of anticipating and avoiding a blow by the merest move of the head."

Nat Fleischer writing in the April 1939 Ring ****zine said, "He sails in, crashes his blows to the body and head, gives the opposition little chance to get set for a counter-attack and wards off blows with the cleverness of a Jack Johnson. Only Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey compare to Joe Louis of today in all around ability...No human body can take the punishment that Jolting Joe dishes out once he goes after his prey. That has been proved conclusively in his last few contests."

Fleischer wrote, Mar. 1942 Ring ****zine, after Louis' destruction of the 6'5" 250 pound Buddy Baer, that, "Not even in the second fight with Max Schmeling did the Detroit Destroyer show as much as he did against Buddy. Joe had everything. He was magnificent. He was a whirlwind on attack, a master of defense, a terror with his devastating punches."

Jimmy Braddock commenting on Louis power said, (McCallum, 46), "Nobody hits like Louis. A punch is a punch. But that Louis. Take the first jab he nails you. You know what it's like? It's like someone jammed a electric bulb in your face and busted it." When asked about his right hand, he said, "It ain't like a punch. It's like someone nailed you with a crowbar. I thought half my head was blowed off. I figured he caved it in. After he hit me I couldnt even feel if it was there."

Eddie Futch, who knew Joe Louis and trained with him at Brewster's gym, described Louis power (Anderson pp.231-232), "Joe's punches could paralyze you...Anywhere he hit you, you'd feel it. Even if he didn't hit you much, just blocking those shots was like being in an automobile accident."

Emmanuel Steward after studying film of Louis-Schemling 2 concurred about Louis paralyzing power, making the following observation, (Pacheco, 45), "Louis body punches were unbelievable. After Max had been immobolized by a right to the kidney, he took a left hook to the solar plexus which paralyzed him. Even though Max was hurt and wanted to fall down, he couldn't even fall."

The June 23, 1938 NY Times quoted Schmeling as saying he was hit with a kidney punch, a devastating right, which so shocked his nervous system, that he was "dazed" and his "vision was blurred." He was hit so hard to the body he lost his sight for a few seconds.

Ray Arcel, one of the greatest trainers in history who trained champions such as Barney Ross, Tony Zale, Roberto Duran, and Larry Holmes, also worked against Louis in 14 of his fights said (Anderson p. 120), "Louis once drove Paulino Uzcudin's teeth right through his mouthpiece!" That's how hard Joe Louis could hit!

Louis had a certain range he liked to work in. A slippery opponent with good footwork who stayed outside Louis punching radius could give him some problems. Louis style was made for a long fight. Given enough rounds he could eventually break down any opponent. Billy Conn boxed beautifully, the best fight of his career, but one only need to make one mistake against Louis and it was over. Louis eventually caught him and knocked him out in the thirteenth round. "They can run but they can't hide" Louis was fond of saying.

Joe said he learned real early in his career to keep his mouth shut and his ears open. His willingness to learn and listen to the advice of his trainer Jack Blackburn (once a great lightweight with over 150 pro fights) allowed him to carry out Jack's fight plans to perfection. In his 2nd title defense against Nathan Mann, Joe was instructed between rounds to "set him up with the right uppercut and deliver the knockout drops with the left hook". Louis executed flawlessly producing an early knockout victory.

[Southpaw16BF]

In Louis day there were not a lot of films of fighters for study. Often one would step into the ring not knowing an opponents style. A properly prepared Louis showed how dangerous he could be as he was 10-0 in rematches of opponent's who had given him trouble the first time, he knocked out and destroyed fighters like Schmeling, Arturo Godoy, Buddy Baer, Abe Simon, Billy Conn and Jersey Joe Walcott in rematches. Louis could spot the fault in an opponent's style and capitalize, demonstrating his worth as a master boxer-puncher.

The Bomber has been berated by some fans as having a "weak chin". This is simply not true. This argument can be made against virtually anyone. All fighters have been knocked down by lesser opponents. Jack Johnson was actually knocked out by Klon***e Haynes and Joe Choynski. Dempsey was decked Luis Firpo and the relatively light-hitting Gene Tunney. Rocky Marciano was decked by an old Jersey Joe Walcott and light-heavyweight champion Archie Moore. Muhammad Ali was dumped by Sonny Banks, and Henry Cooper as well as Joe Frazier. Larry Holmes was decked by Kevin Isaacs, Earnie Shavers, and Renaldo Snipes who was not known for his power. Lennox Lewis was knocked out by Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman, never getting off the deck to win a fight.

Max Baer, whose fists were lethal, hit Joe with some of his hardest punches. Louis took them easily. Louis never hit the canvas until his first fight with Schmeling. In his only loss, (from 1934-1949 when he retired as champion), it took Max Schmeling 57 right hand power shots to finally bring Louis down. Schmeling, a first rate counter puncher, was able to exploit Louis mistake of dropping his left after jabbing and especially when launching a left hook. He then proved vulnerable to a straight right hand. (Joe afterward corrected that mistake). Louis proved he could take it. One punch could not knock out Joe Louis. He had to be beaten over the course of the fight. Nat Fleischer in the Aug. 1936 Ring ****zine commenting on Louis loss wrote, "Louis at least answered the critics who said he couldn't take a punch. He took it, and how! He absorbed enough punishment to have laid low the average pugilist a half dozen times. Staggered time and again, he kept on his feet and fought back..." That comment still stands. Louis could take it and fight back, usually with a vengeance!

The ability to come back and win is the sign of a great fighter. Louis had exceptional recuperative ability. He was knocked through the ropes by Buddy Baer in their first bout. Many of the sportswriters at ringside were having visions of Dempsey-Firpo. Sportswriter **** Cox described what happened next, "Louis, though dazed, recuperated with extraordinary swiftness, and had the situation well in hand, almost before the crowd had ceased shouting over Buddy's surprising feet." In his bout with "Two Ton" Tony Galento, Louis found himself on the receiving end of a Joe Frazier style left hook. Louis went down from the blast in the third round. He got up immediately. Louis was battering Galento mercilessly by rounds end. The end came with sudden devastation in the 4th. When the Bomber let loose the big guns nobody could survive the ferocity of his attack.

The defining fight of Joe Louis career was his rematch with Max Schemeling. With the world on the brink of all out war, Joe Louis faced the **** symbol of Aryan supremacy, who handed Louis the only loss of his prime career. Writer Bob Considine described Louis preparation, (Book of Boxing p. 64), "He was a big lean copper spring, tightened and retightened through weeks of training until he was one pregnant package of coiled venom."

Louis uncoiled his blazing fists upon Schmeling with a raging assault. With murder in his eyes, Joe floored Max three times and knocked him out in the first round. It was one of the most devastating knockouts in heavyweight history.

Hype Igoe, a boxing writer and historian, in the Feb. 1941 issue of Ring ****zine, stated "It has been my contention that had Louis always fought with a rush, as he did against Schmeling, none of his opponents would have gotten out of the first round." Louis was indeed a devastating puncher with either hand. William Detloff rated him the # 1 puncher of all time in his article The 100 Greatest Punchers of All Time Ring Almanac 2004.

Perhaps Joe Louis can be best summed up in his own words, "I don't like to hurt nobody, but its my job, and I do it as best as I can!"

Louis skills greatly faded after his 4 year lay-off due to World War 2. He retired as champion in 1949. Because of a tax debt Joe was forced to make a comeback to pay off the IRS. Louis was no longer the same fighter. His blazing hand speed was a thing of the past. He still had some success due to the fact that he was a boxer who made few mistakes in the ring. But as Nat Fleischer wrote, (Ring Dec 1955), by the time of his last fight against Rocky Marciano he had "long since lost his once paralyzing punch."

Louis wasn't able to pay off his debt, though it was eventually forgiven him by the U.S. Government. Joe Louis suffered from health problems later in life. He died on April 12, 1981. He was buried in Arlington National Cemetary at the request of President Ronald Reagan.

Most boxing historians rate Joe Louis number one or number two on their list of the greatest heavyweights of all time. Eddie Futch, who devised the strategy that defeated Ali for both Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, considers Joe Louis to be the greatest of the all time heavies. The late editor of the Ring, Nat Loubet, rated Joe Louis number one on his list of heavyweight greats. Boxing historians such as Dan Daniel, Lew Eskin, Ted Carroll, and Bill Gallo all consider Joe Louis to be the greatest heavyweight champion. John Durant, author of "The Heavyweight Champions" rated him as the # 1 heavyweight of all time. Bert Sugar rates Joe Louis # 2 at heavyweight. The Aug. 1980 issue of the Ring rated Louis as the second greatest fighter in history behind only Sugar Ray Robinson. The Holiday 1998 issue of the Ring rated Louis second behind Muhammad Ali at heavyweight. Former heavyweight champ and boxing historian Mike Tyson, in the HBO video, "Tyson and the Heavyweights" (1988), said of Louis, "It's difficult to see anyone beating him even Muhammad Ali". Cox's Corner rates Joe Louis # 1 among All Time Heavyweights.

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