Do you think Jack Dempsey is overrated?

[Southpaw Stinger]

No, Dempsey was a real fighter. People tend to overlook his actual fighting skills these days. Dempsey grew up around fist fighting and you can see by his fghting and sparring videos how well he moved and punched.

If you think how Marciano and Frazier just endlessly moved forwards throwing shots, Dempsey actually was much superior in that he circled, moved in and out, bobbed and weaved with more skill and random combinations than the predictable headmovement of Frazier. Dempsey knew when to attack, when to back off and when to tie up. On top of that he had a huge variety of punchers and could take your head off with anyone of them. His skills are vastly underated now.

In regards to his inactivity during his championship years, that's mainly down to his manager Jack 'Doc' Kearns who wanted Dempsey to hold the title for as long as possible, so regular fighting was out of the question. Dempsey did box regular exhibition during all of these years though to try to keep in trim and earn more money from the title. It was also Kearns who wouldn't allow Dempsey to defend against a black fighter.

[them_apples]

I actually have him ranked #4 on my Heavyweight ATG list.

Poet

can you expand on why you have him that high? I'd like to hear it. I'm always arguing with people about having Dempsey so high on the ATg list yet the most I have recieved is "he beat the best of his generation". Which I don't think cuts it unless you want to shove Vitali up amongst the upper echelon.

His biggest win came over the likes of Jess Willard, not to mention he lost in the prime of his career against competition that was below average. (Yes he was underfed - but we can't push aside what the outcome was).

[them_apples]

No, Dempsey was a real fighter. People tend to overlook his actual fighting skills these days. Dempsey grew up around fist fighting and you can see by his fghting and sparring videos how well he moved and punched.

If you think how Marciano and Frazier just endlessly moved forwards throwing shots, Dempsey actually was much superior in that he circled, moved in and out, bobbed and weaved with more skill and random combinations than the predictable headmovement of Frazier. Dempsey knew when to attack, when to back off and when to tie up. On top of that he had a huge variety of punchers and could take your head off with anyone of them. His skills are vastly underated now.

In regards to his inactivity during his championship years, that's mainly down to his manager Jack 'Doc' Kearns who wanted Dempsey to hold the title for as long as possible, so regular fighting was out of the question. Dempsey did box regular exhibition during all of these years though to try to keep in trim and earn more money from the title. It was also Kearns who wouldn't allow Dempsey to defend against a black fighter.

his greatness should be based upon his resume though. Not how good he looked.

[Southpaw Stinger]

his greatness should be based upon his resume though. Not how good he looked.

His resume was also impressive, beating most of the top fighters of his era. From the big strong guys like Willard and Firpo to the clever boxers like Carpentier and Gibbons. And top contenders like Brennan and Miske. I think he also holds the record for most 1st round KO's.

[TheGreatA]

can you expand on why you have him that high? I'd like to hear it. I'm always arguing with people about having Dempsey so high on the ATg list yet the most I have recieved is "he beat the best of his generation". Which I don't think cuts it unless you want to shove Vitali up amongst the upper echelon.

His biggest win came over the likes of Jess Willard, not to mention he lost in the prime of his career against competition that was below average. (Yes he was underfed - but we can't push aside what the outcome was).

I would be happy to rank Dempsey in the top 5 if only he had fought Harry Wills (probably a top 15 HW in my view).

I don't think Jess Willard was his best win, in fact I believe that Fred Fulton was probably better than Willard (and as big as Willard was too), and Dempsey destroyed Fulton in 23 seconds.

Gunboat Smith beat Willard, Dempsey beat Smith twice.

Billy Miske had a really good resume as did Tommy Gibbons. Both were a little under-sized as heavyweights but no smaller than Dempsey himself.

Battling Levinsky, Bill Brennan, Carl Morris, Bob McAllister, Willie Meehan, solid contenders. Georges Carpentier, a big punching light heavyweight champion.

Luis Firpo was a product of hype but he was a bigger, stronger slugger whom Dempsey took head on. He completely fought Firpo's fight and beat him, though not without some trouble.

The reason the win over Willard is impressive, is because Willard had gotten a reputation as an iron-jawed giant who could last more than 20 rounds without tiring. He had also killed a man in the ring which added to his reputation. You could outbox him, as Jack Johnson did for 20 rounds and others did in 10 round bouts, but you couldn't outlast him or knock him out.

Dempsey had Willard on his back after about a minute into the fight and kept knocking him down with ease.

The most impressive thing about this fight to me however is that Willard kept smiling as he took the beating. Certainly a very, very tough guy if not a very skilled boxer.

Dempsey's best win, in my opinion, was his knockout over Jack Sharkey. Now there are those who believe that this win was controversial due to Sharkey being struck as he complained about low blows but I think of it as a great comeback victory over a younger up and coming fighter who went onto become the champion.

Sharkey outboxed Dempsey early on, hurt him in some rounds, looked very impressive until striking Dempsey after the bell and taunting him. Dempsey came out furious in the next round, threw numerous body blows and landed a very short left hook which knocked Sharkey off his feet and onto his face.

Sharkey had previously beaten the man Dempsey never faced Harry Wills, although Wills was in his late 30's at the time. He later won the world heavyweight title.

[mickey malone]

well? do you belive dempsey is overrated? bert sugar ranked him the 9th best fighter of all time. how do you rank him? and do you belive he's overrated?

He's my number 11, and yes, I do feel there's a slight tendency to overate him.. He was a fine fighter by any ones standards, but I'd beg to differ on his overall ring craft.. He could be untidy & reckless, which is why he lost to Tunney (1st time).. However, the 2nd fight was Dempseys in the bag, but after knocking his man down, spent valuable seconds admiring his work, allowing Tunney to recover, hence 'the long count'.. I rate Rocky Marciano just ahead of him at no9, but had both men been around 30lbs heavier, I'd have ranked them higher..

[Gettin Jiggy]

it amazes me how bert can have him the 9th best fighter of all time. and how he can have monzon and whitaker so low!

[Gettin Jiggy]

I actually have him ranked #4 on my Heavyweight ATG list.

Poet

wow thats high. who do you have him above?

[StarshipTrooper]

wow thats high. who do you have him above?

01. Muhammad Ali
02. Joe Louis
03. Jack Johnson
04. Jack Dempsey
05. Larry Holmes
06. Sonny Liston
07. Evander Holyfield
08. George Foreman
09. Rocky Marciano
10. Mike Tyson
11. Joe Frazier
12. Harry Wills

[Gettin Jiggy]

01. Muhammad Ali
02. Joe Louis
03. Jack Johnson
04. Jack Dempsey
05. Larry Holmes
06. Sonny Liston
07. Evander Holyfield
08. George Foreman
09. Rocky Marciano
10. Mike Tyson
11. Joe Frazier
12. Harry Wills

why do you have dempsey higher than holmes, foreman, and marcaino? holmes was a much more dominant champion at heavyweight making 20 defences.

marcaino was never beaten at heavyweight and never lost his title and proably beat better fighters than dempsey.

and foreman beat better fighters than dempsey and avoided virtually no one.

AND WERE THE HELL IS LENNOX LEWIS?

explain?