What makes Benny Leonard a top 10 ATG?

[Bogler]

ok first off this is not a diss on Benny, rather to know more about him aside from reading whats on boxrec. he was a great lightweight for several years and went up the division in his later years but never won a title there. is it the 183 wins?

enlighten me gurus.

[JAB5239]

ok first off this is not a diss on Benny, rather to know more about him aside from reading whats on boxrec. he was a great lightweight for several years and went up the division in his later years but never won a title there. is it the 183 wins?

enlighten me gurus.

Leonard did win the lightweight title in in 1917 and held it quite a few years. That isn't what makes him rank so high though. Its his level of competition and who he beat. There may only be a handful or so of fighters throughout history, in any weight class, with better resumes against top notch prime fighters than Leonard. He without a doubt has fought best comp in the lightweight division than anybody ever. He was also dominant and only stopped 3 or 4 times inover 200 fights. That is pretty damn impressive in my opinion.

[andrewcuff]

Leonard did win the lightweight title in in 1917 and held it quite a few years. That isn't what makes him rank so high though. Its his level of competition and who he beat. There may only be a handful or so of fighters throughout history, in any weight class, with better resumes against top notch prime fighters than Leonard. He without a doubt has fought best comp in the lightweight division than anybody ever. He was also dominant and only stopped 3 or 4 times inover 200 fights. That is pretty damn impressive in my opinion.

I don't know much about Benny Leonard, but I always thought Duran had the best lightweight resume?

[JAB5239]

I don't know much about Benny Leonard, but I always thought Duran had the best lightweight resume?

No, not even close my friend. Duran, Leonard or Gans can be considered best ever at lightweight in my opinion for different reasons. Leonards is because of the comp he fought. Tendler, Lewis, Cline, Welsh, Dundee, Kansas and Kilbane were all great fighters he fought as well as a slew of contenders who I am not as familiar with. Most of these guys he fought multiple times too. If you get to understand the era and the opponents he faced, its incredibly impressive.

[Bogler]

No, not even close my friend. Duran, Leonard or Gans can be considered best ever at lightweight in my opinion for different reasons. Leonards is because of the comp he fought. Tendler, Lewis, Cline, Welsh, Dundee, Kansas and Kilbane were all great fighters he fought as well as a slew of contenders who I am not as familiar with. Most of these guys he fought multiple times too. If you get to understand the era and the opponents he faced, its incredibly impressive.

ok i've no time to search if these fighters you mentioned are HOFers or were probably just B class fighters ala david diaz or katsidis, but ive read of a few. the thing w/ past fighters, we don't get to read much about controversies pre or post fights like we can today given the internet. we only question wins back then only if we see competition is past prime or old. no excuses weight drain issues, coming off a loss, etc. that we're full of today.

and i think that's why boxers of today find it hard to be compared to boxers back then since you get scrutinized more today and are more visible.

[S.G.]

It's my understanding that he was highly skilled for his time too, along with the great resume

Very cerebral fighter

[JAB5239]

ok i've no time to search if these fighters you mentioned are HOFers or were probably just B class fighters ala david diaz or katsidis, but ive read of a few. the thing w/ past fighters, we don't get to read much about controversies pre or post fights like we can today given the internet. we only question wins back then only if we see competition is past prime or old. no excuses weight drain issues, coming off a loss, etc. that we're full of today.

and i think that's why boxers of today find it hard to be compared to boxers back then since you get scrutinized more today and are more visible.

Tendler, Lewis, Welsh, Britton, Dundee, Kilbain and McClarnin, who he lost to are all in the hall of fame. And you can read plenty on these fighters from newspaper accounts of the day as well as other sources.

I take the opposite stance as you. I think fighters of the past get more scrutinized than todays fighters and were given much less concessions. We're talking same day weigh ins, 8 weight classes with one champion in each, sometimes fighting more than a dozen times a year, fighting injured because they needed the payday as the money then wasn't a fraction for most fighters as it is today. We're talking fighting in 2 to 4oz horse hair gloves. All this and I hear people question why many fighters of that time sport so many losses on their records compared to todays prima donna's. Even yourself...maybe it was just the way you worded it, but you asked if "these guys were hof fighters, or probably just B class fighter ala David Diaz or Katstidas". You've made that assumptiom without kowing anything about these guys and nothing could be further from the truth. Im not pointing any fingers, but a lot of guys on here have no clue what they're talking about when it comes to most of these fighters or past era's and just jump to conclussions and make assumption. It takes more than boxrec to understand a fighter, his comp and his era.

[StarshipTrooper]

Until Ray Robinson came along Benny Leonard was widely considered the best fighter ever p4p, even over Homicide Hank Armstrong.

Poet

[KostyaTszyu44]

leonard is a fighter i have a lot of respect for. way ahead of his time from what i have seen, especially defensively

and also fought a good crop of fighters

[BennyST]

Until Ray Robinson came along Benny Leonard was widely considered the best fighter ever p4p, even over Homicide Hank Armstrong.

Poet

Even after Robinson came along by many who saw them both fight throughout their whole careers. Ray Arcel, trainer of Duran, among many, many others when asked who he thought the greatest ever fighter P4P was said something along the lines of "Many people consider Robinson the best, but for me the best fighter that ever fought was Benny Leonard. He had speed, strength, defense and could out-think anybody."

Something very similar to that anyway.