Originally posted by blackirish137
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Poet
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Screw Julio Cesar Crybaby. Without Don King around to change his diapers nobody would know who the **** he was.
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I have Floyd over Arguello based on that I think he is the better overall fighter. Arguello fought quality opposition but so did Floyd even if Arguello fought better opposition it is not by enough for me to put him above Floyd who I feel is the better man in the ring. Those are 1-2 in my eyes though so either way is good. JCC did alright at 130 but he is below the other 2 and can be thrown into a mix of Nelson, Saddler, Elorde and possibly Genaro Hernadez the next 5 can fall into any order and it is fair.Comment
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yeah Saddler clearly outsized.Originally posted by Tengoshi View Post
Damn he was skilled. his style was perfect to make a slickster fight an ugly fight. I imagine clinching with him was painful before any punches were even thrown...Comment
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youre crazy. JCC would have had a fantastic record no matter what promoter he signed with.Originally posted by poet682006 View Post
and its not like Don King 'saved' him many times anyway. even if all of JCC's controversial fights went down as losses for him, he would still be legendary. he was already 70-0 or something and a champion in three weight classes before his first controversial fight.Comment
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You mean 70-0 with 70 fights against local "tough guys" in Tiajuana bars? His crude, face-first low-skill approach to boxing fits right in in those venues. Three of my favorite boxing memories? Watching Binky Boy Chavez getting the **** beat out of him against De La Hoya and Tszyu.Originally posted by blackirish137 View Post
PoetComment
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I love the night that Willie Wise beat the hell out of Chavez. That was one helluva beating!!!!!!Originally posted by poet682006 View PostComment
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theres no point in trying to actually talk to you, but Ill try anyway.Originally posted by poet682006 View Post
does that really look like a 'crude, face-first low-skill' fighter to you? cmon now.
did he beat a lot of bums? yes. I think he had about 40 fights before his first real test.
but he also had a ton of wins over future of former belt holders and fought a lot of legitimate top fighters at his different weight classes, like
-Edwin Roasrio
-Mario Martinez
-Ruben Castillo
-Roger Mayweather x2, at different weight classes
-Juan LaPorte
-Rocky Lockridge
-Jose Luis Ramirez
-Greg Haugen
-Terrance Ali
-Hector Camacho
-Lonnie Smith
-Giovanni Parisi
among others.
Chavez was obviously past prime against Tyszu and DeLaHoya. Morales was shot at even younger age than Chavez, 30, but that doesnt change the fact that he had an amazing career and is one of the best ever around his weight.Comment
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WARNING: Very long post!
There has been a fair bit of discussion about Mayweather vs Arguello, since these guys are generally what most have at the top of the 130 division. I have Arguello above Mayweather based on opponents. Skill-wise Mayweather is at the top of the heap and with all the talk over the years of this fight I thought I would throw something out there.
There has been one guy in particular that has been overlooked, basically forgotten in fact, as a brilliant FW champ. It's understandable as he was not a hugely long reigning champ but he did retire undefeated as the champ. This guy was a fantastic defensive fighter who had very quick lateral movement and shot in counter shots from all angles. Very quick fighter.
Anyway, his last fight ever was against Arguello for the FW title. It was a great fight over fifteen and this is very similar to how I think a fight with Mayweather and Arguello would play out.
He beat Arguello with one punch in particular. Guess what it was? The lead right. His lead right was possibly the best I've ever seen. He shot it out so quick and would double, triple, sometimes throw one, step back, shoot in another, slide to an angle and shoot another. Nearly every one landed for hm on Arguello. It was very similar to the way Mayweather used it. He kind of used it as a jab nearly, that's how often he threw it, but it always landed and always took his opponent by surprise. He nearly put Arguello down numerous times throughout the fight with it.
Anyway, it was a pretty damn good fight with lots of twists and turns. It was reasonably close, but the clearer, cleaner and often harder shots were always landed on Arguello. One thing that was quite apparent was the frustration that Arguello had trying to land enough clean shots. With the quick lateral movement employed Arguello was constantly trying to get set and by the time he had had his feet planted ready to throw, he was already back out, slipped out to an angle and and shot in another counter combo. Really brilliant fight.
As usual though in an Arguello fight, towards the end he started to come on much stronger and landed some good clean shots in the last rounds and even had him briefly hurt in one round. The championship rounds were very evenly fought with neither guy getting an obvious edge and with the majority of early and middle rounds being lost by Arguello, he didn't have much chance of winning a decision. This is how I would see a fight between Mayweather and Alexis going though. Mayweather winning the early and middle rounds with sharp counter punching, great defense and movement and frustrating Arguello while Arguello comes on stronger in the late rounds but not enough to knock him out or win.
Anyway, his name is Ernesto Marcel. He had a record of 40-4-2. Two of his losses came very early in his career and both were avenged easily. One of his other losses was a supposedly shocking hometown decision to a fighter in Venezuela later in his career. I think the Venezuelan's may have had something of a dislike for him as he beat two of their finest champions. Anyway, he was supposedly robbed blind in a non-title, tune-up fight. His only other loss, and really the only proper loss of his career came to the great Roberto Duran when Duran was a young FW. He won by TKO in the only stoppage loss of Marcel's career.
His first title fight was another supposed robbery when he was only given a draw in Japan against the revered Japanese champion Kuniaki Shibata. One Japanese judge had what was meant to be the right decision of 71-65 for Marcel, with the other 71-71 and 69-71 for the Japanese fighter. Nonetheless, Shibata was a great champion and it shows how good Marcel was that he was meant to have beaten him so well despite the decision.
He also beat other great champions such as the aforementioned Alexis Arguello, Antonio Gomez twice, Alfredo Mercano twice, the legendary Samuel Serrano, the great Colombian fighter Bernado Caraballo (who sadly was only able to get two title shots against the greats Eder Jofre and Fighting Harada and lost both, but also beat other greats like Pascual Perez), and some other fine contenders of the day like Spider Nemeto, Ramiro Bolanos, Miguel Riasco etc etc.
Anyway, he was nominated for the HOF last year. Not too sure if he got in or not, but he is an often overlooked fighter with some legendary names on his record and a truly great fighter that was rather similar to Mayweather though with a fair bit more quick in and out type movement.Comment
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Excellent post! Well thought out analysis and informative. Can't give you green K again just yet, but I would urge any other objective poster to do so.Originally posted by BennyST View PostWARNING: Very long post!
There has been a fair bit of discussion about Mayweather vs Arguello, since these guys are generally what most have at the top of the 130 division. I have Arguello above Mayweather based on opponents. Skill-wise Mayweather is at the top of the heap and with all the talk over the years of this fight I thought I would throw something out there.
There has been one guy in particular that has been overlooked, basically forgotten in fact, as a brilliant FW champ. It's understandable as he was not a hugely long reigning champ but he did retire undefeated as the champ. This guy was a fantastic defensive fighter who had very quick lateral movement and shot in counter shots from all angles. Very quick fighter.
Anyway, his last fight ever was against Arguello for the FW title. It was a great fight over fifteen and this is very similar to how I think a fight with Mayweather and Arguello would play out.
He beat Arguello with one punch in particular. Guess what it was? The lead right. His lead right was possibly the best I've ever seen. He shot it out so quick and would double, triple, sometimes throw one, step back, shoot in another, slide to an angle and shoot another. Nearly every one landed for hm on Arguello. It was very similar to the way Mayweather used it. He kind of used it as a jab nearly, that's how often he threw it, but it always landed and always took his opponent by surprise. He nearly put Arguello down numerous times throughout the fight with it.
Anyway, it was a pretty damn good fight with lots of twists and turns. It was reasonably close, but the clearer, cleaner and often harder shots were always landed on Arguello. One thing that was quite apparent was the frustration that Arguello had trying to land enough clean shots. With the quick lateral movement employed Arguello was constantly trying to get set and by the time he had had his feet planted ready to throw, he was already back out, slipped out to an angle and and shot in another counter combo. Really brilliant fight.
As usual though in an Arguello fight, towards the end he started to come on much stronger and landed some good clean shots in the last rounds and even had him briefly hurt in one round. The championship rounds were very evenly fought with neither guy getting an obvious edge and with the majority of early and middle rounds being lost by Arguello, he didn't have much chance of winning a decision. This is how I would see a fight between Mayweather and Alexis going though. Mayweather winning the early and middle rounds with sharp counter punching, great defense and movement and frustrating Arguello while Arguello comes on stronger in the late rounds but not enough to knock him out or win.
Anyway, his name is Ernesto Marcel. He had a record of 40-4-2. Two of his losses came very early in his career and both were avenged easily. One of his other losses was a supposedly shocking hometown decision to a fighter in Venezuela later in his career. I think the Venezuelan's may have had something of a dislike for him as he beat two of their finest champions. Anyway, he was supposedly robbed blind in a non-title, tune-up fight. His only other loss, and really the only proper loss of his career came to the great Roberto Duran when Duran was a young FW. He won by TKO in the only stoppage loss of Marcel's career.
His first title fight was another supposed robbery when he was only given a draw in Japan against the revered Japanese champion Kuniaki Shibata. One Japanese judge had what was meant to be the right decision of 71-65 for Marcel, with the other 71-71 and 69-71 for the Japanese fighter. Nonetheless, Shibata was a great champion and it shows how good Marcel was that he was meant to have beaten him so well despite the decision.
He also beat other great champions such as the aforementioned Alexis Arguello, Antonio Gomez twice, Alfredo Mercano twice, the legendary Samuel Serrano, the great Colombian fighter Bernado Caraballo (who sadly was only able to get two title shots against the greats Eder Jofre and Fighting Harada and lost both, but also beat other greats like Pascual Perez), and some other fine contenders of the day like Spider Nemeto, Ramiro Bolanos, Miguel Riasco etc etc.
Anyway, he was nominated for the HOF last year. Not too sure if he got in or not, but he is an often overlooked fighter with some legendary names on his record and a truly great fighter that was rather similar to Mayweather though with a fair bit more quick in and out type movement.
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Thanks for the analysis on the great Ernesto Marcel. About 10 years ago, ESPN Classic broadcast the Marcel-Arguello fight and I missed it. Never to be aired again. I always wondered why he retired so early. In his next title opportunity, Arguello ko'd Olivares. Marcel deserves to be in the HOF on the basis that he was able to defeat such a great fighter as Arguello alone. Has anyone have any info on another totally ignored 126 pound champ with a lengthy reign, Antonio Esparagoza? I don't believe any of his fights were ever televised in the U.S.Originally posted by BennyST View PostWARNING: Very long post!
There has been a fair bit of discussion about Mayweather vs Arguello, since these guys are generally what most have at the top of the 130 division. I have Arguello above Mayweather based on opponents. Skill-wise Mayweather is at the top of the heap and with all the talk over the years of this fight I thought I would throw something out there.
There has been one guy in particular that has been overlooked, basically forgotten in fact, as a brilliant FW champ. It's understandable as he was not a hugely long reigning champ but he did retire undefeated as the champ. This guy was a fantastic defensive fighter who had very quick lateral movement and shot in counter shots from all angles. Very quick fighter.
Anyway, his last fight ever was against Arguello for the FW title. It was a great fight over fifteen and this is very similar to how I think a fight with Mayweather and Arguello would play out.
He beat Arguello with one punch in particular. Guess what it was? The lead right. His lead right was possibly the best I've ever seen. He shot it out so quick and would double, triple, sometimes throw one, step back, shoot in another, slide to an angle and shoot another. Nearly every one landed for hm on Arguello. It was very similar to the way Mayweather used it. He kind of used it as a jab nearly, that's how often he threw it, but it always landed and always took his opponent by surprise. He nearly put Arguello down numerous times throughout the fight with it.
Anyway, it was a pretty damn good fight with lots of twists and turns. It was reasonably close, but the clearer, cleaner and often harder shots were always landed on Arguello. One thing that was quite apparent was the frustration that Arguello had trying to land enough clean shots. With the quick lateral movement employed Arguello was constantly trying to get set and by the time he had had his feet planted ready to throw, he was already back out, slipped out to an angle and and shot in another counter combo. Really brilliant fight.
As usual though in an Arguello fight, towards the end he started to come on much stronger and landed some good clean shots in the last rounds and even had him briefly hurt in one round. The championship rounds were very evenly fought with neither guy getting an obvious edge and with the majority of early and middle rounds being lost by Arguello, he didn't have much chance of winning a decision. This is how I would see a fight between Mayweather and Alexis going though. Mayweather winning the early and middle rounds with sharp counter punching, great defense and movement and frustrating Arguello while Arguello comes on stronger in the late rounds but not enough to knock him out or win.
Anyway, his name is Ernesto Marcel. He had a record of 40-4-2. Two of his losses came very early in his career and both were avenged easily. One of his other losses was a supposedly shocking hometown decision to a fighter in Venezuela later in his career. I think the Venezuelan's may have had something of a dislike for him as he beat two of their finest champions. Anyway, he was supposedly robbed blind in a non-title, tune-up fight. His only other loss, and really the only proper loss of his career came to the great Roberto Duran when Duran was a young FW. He won by TKO in the only stoppage loss of Marcel's career.
His first title fight was another supposed robbery when he was only given a draw in Japan against the revered Japanese champion Kuniaki Shibata. One Japanese judge had what was meant to be the right decision of 71-65 for Marcel, with the other 71-71 and 69-71 for the Japanese fighter. Nonetheless, Shibata was a great champion and it shows how good Marcel was that he was meant to have beaten him so well despite the decision.
He also beat other great champions such as the aforementioned Alexis Arguello, Antonio Gomez twice, Alfredo Mercano twice, the legendary Samuel Serrano, the great Colombian fighter Bernado Caraballo (who sadly was only able to get two title shots against the greats Eder Jofre and Fighting Harada and lost both, but also beat other greats like Pascual Perez), and some other fine contenders of the day like Spider Nemeto, Ramiro Bolanos, Miguel Riasco etc etc.
Anyway, he was nominated for the HOF last year. Not too sure if he got in or not, but he is an often overlooked fighter with some legendary names on his record and a truly great fighter that was rather similar to Mayweather though with a fair bit more quick in and out type movement.Comment
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