Do you think that Sonny Liston intentionally..

[Xyei]

Put something on his glove to blind Ali in the first fight? I saw a documentary on Ali last night and one guy said "Then Liston tried to cheat" and talked about a chemical that was later banned from the ring. I forget what it was. I've heard this rumor before but the guy on the documentary was speaking of it like it was a fact.

It is obvious that Ali was blinded by something. He asked to have his gloves taken off and Angelo said no ****ing way! "This is for the world title kid." Do you think that he did it on purpose?

Discuss..

[BKM-]

I still can't believe how Liston barely gets any heat over that. It's one of the most disgraceful things I've seen in Boxing. Ever.

[JAB5239]

Put something on his glove to blind Ali in the first fight? I saw a documentary on Ali last night and one guy said "Then Liston tried to cheat" and talked about a chemical that was later banned from the ring. I forget what it was. I've heard this rumor before but the guy on the documentary was speaking of it like it was a fact.

It is obvious that Ali was blinded by something. He asked to have his gloves taken off and Angelo said no ****ing way! "This is for the world title kid." Do you think that he did it on purpose?

Discuss..

I do. Liston was a great fighter, but he had a bully mentality and I believe his corner did too. If threatened I think they would do whatever necessary, including cheating, to win. Liston was also accused of having ointment on his gloves for one of the Cleveland Williams fights and another I can't remember. People can say what they want, but I don't believe in coincidences. Sonny knew he was a beaten fighter in both Ali fights. In the first, he made a last ditch effort to try a win by using a blinding substance on his gloves. In the second fight he was just looking for a way out. Jmo.

[Mafcherano]

In the second he was actually stopped on his feet! The count was done incorrectly and he very well could have been waiting for it. Bad refereeing. In the first it is obvious he got his punk ass beat down so he has no excuse about rematch. He had his chance and got beaten so bad and it was so OBVIOUS that he cheated before quitting like the bum he was. I mean bum in terms of attitude not ability.

[TheGreatA]

I don't know.

I've heard people say (mostly Bert Sugar) that Liston put something on his gloves in the Williams, Machen and Folley fights but after reviewing these fights and hearing other people's opinions (who were around at the time) I was proven that this was not true.
The fighters never came out and said anything of the sort.


Dundee never tried to act as if Ali had been cheated.

It could've been intentional for sure, we know what people Liston was involved with, but there is no definite proof either way in my opinion. From what I know, none of Liston's cornermen have ever come out and said anything about it.

The 'blinding' is just something that people take for granted, because it's always talked about. Like when Willie Pep went a round without throwing a punch or when Ali got several minutes to recover after he was floored by a Cooper left hook.

I do know that Liston came out with the intention to knock Ali out in that fifth round after seeing what had happened, it's a great display of Ali's toughness when he takes all of Liston's punches and comes right back in the 6th round to win the fight.

I also believe that the shoulder injury was indeed real, but do not feel that Liston would've quit if it wasn't for the beating he took and the fact that he knew he would be given an instant rematch and could train harder for it.


I do not believe that the second fight was a fix but rather a lousy job by referee Jersey Joe Walcott.
Perhaps Liston was looking for a way out, but he was on his feet when the fight was stopped. It should not have been because Walcott had not counted to ten, he had not counted at all actually.

Liston always maintained that he was only taking all the time to recover that was given to him and was not going to get up until Ali was taken to a neutral corner.
Sounds reasonable but again, with his background in crime it's impossible to know what was really going on.

[Xyei]

Thanks TheManchine! Great info there!

That punch looks very suspect. It looks like it barely hit him... It was a really quick punch so maybe it's just the angle but that is very su****ious.

[BattlingNelson]

Put something on his glove to blind Ali in the first fight? I saw a documentary on Ali last night and one guy said "Then Liston tried to cheat" and talked about a chemical that was later banned from the ring. I forget what it was. I've heard this rumor before but the guy on the documentary was speaking of it like it was a fact.

It is obvious that Ali was blinded by something. He asked to have his gloves taken off and Angelo said no ****ing way! "This is for the world title kid." Do you think that he did it on purpose?

Discuss..

Ali himself said that his eye was blinded by a substance Listons corner used on the shoulder.

Thanks TheManchine! Great info there!

That punch looks very suspect. It looks like it barely hit him... It was a really quick punch so maybe it's just the angle but that is very su****ious.

The second Liston fight was held in Lewiston, Maine. It's a very strange place to stage a heavyweight titlefight. The reason was that Ali had received multiple threats on his life because of his religious beliefs. It was also rumoured that the mafia had put a contract on him. So none of the regular big-time venue wanted anything to do with Ali.

What I'm getting at here is that Liston was a simple man, and some people believe that he was scared when he fought Ali the second time. Not scared of Ali, but scared that a possible assasinationattempt might mistakenly hit him instead of Ali. According to that theory that was why Liston didn't get up when it appeared as if he could had he wanted to. He wanted out as quickly as possible. On a sidenote let me add that Liston was rumoured having heavy connections with the mafia, so maybe he actually knew something.

[TheGreatA]

Thanks TheManchine! Great info there!

That punch looks very suspect. It looks like it barely hit him... It was a really quick punch so maybe it's just the angle but that is very su****ious.

You can see that it landed and rocked Liston's head back in slow motion. It was only a flash knockdown though and Liston should've been able to get up immediately.

[JAB5239]

Ali himself said that his eye was blinded by a substance Listons corner used on the shoulder.

I have also heard that Williams had openly complained, but it isn't something I can verify at this time.

The second Liston fight was held in Lewiston, Maine. It's a very strange place to stage a heavyweight titlefight. The reason was that Ali had received multiple threats on his life because of his religious beliefs. It was also rumoured that the mafia had put a contract on him. So none of the regular big-time venue wanted anything to do with Ali.

What I'm getting at here is that Liston was a simple man, and some people believe that he was scared when he fought Ali the second time. Not scared of Ali, but scared that a possible assasinationattempt might mistakenly hit him instead of Ali. According to that theory that was why Liston didn't get up when it appeared as if he could had he wanted to. He wanted out as quickly as possible. On a sidenote let me add that Liston was rumoured having heavy connections with the mafia, so maybe he actually knew something.

There have been all sorts of theories and rumors about this. Some more reasonable than others. But I think its very clear Liston was looking for a way out.

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE=TheManchine;3921704]You can see that it landed and rocked Liston's head back in slow motion. It was only a flash knockdown though and Liston should've been able to get up immediately.QUOTE]


I have no doubt he could have beaten the count or that Walcott screwed up. It just doesn't look like he wanted to. That punch was his excuse to get out of that fight, but Walcotts incompetence sealed it.