BEST POUND 4 POUND CHAMP EVER? and top 10

[Lubutheimmortal]

Ali hardly had to block a jab because he would out jab every single opponant he had one of the best jabs every seen in boxing opponants would throw the jab then Ali would throw it back faster ,harder and more accurate plus he had great leaning ability also reflexes it was very hard to out jab ali in his prime anyway.

True but this is p4p, not a greatest heavyweight discussion. Ali in a p4p match would meet several others that could match, and possibly be out match his jab. He'd be forced to change his offense, and his main weapon through out 80% of his matches was his right jab. He would have to raise his arms and BLOCK the jab, which is something he never really did. A perfect example is what if Sonny Liston was younger, and in his prime when they fought? Listons jab barely missed Clay/Ali, soooo that means Listons jab would of been faster with him being prime, and argueably would of hit Clay/Ali. What would of happened then? Clay/Ali would of ate several HARD jabs from Liston all night, and IMO this would of made for a interesting fight. I still think Ali would of pulled off a SD against a prime Liston, but who is to say Clay/Ali wouldnt of been beaten up really bad with swelling, broken jaw/nose, adn ect?

jones actually has a decent chin
against hanshaw i seen em get hit wit shots that made me think he was gettin ko'd again
but he proved me wrong

Jones has proved he can be KTFO,.....by someone at Tarver's level. So think about it p4p Liston, Louis, Foreman, Moore, all the big p4p puncher has a amazing chance versus Jones. Please dont get me wrong, I am not hating on Jones, just stating my opinion. I love watching Jones pick apart fighter, but I can rank him up the ATG's...ONLY due to his chin. You have to have that chin (or amazing heart i.e Louis) so no one can say "we'll he'd just get knocked down over and over then quit".

[Wiley Hyena]

You might want to check out the career of Bob Fitzsimmons when talking about p4p. He beat 'em up all the way from middles to heavies. Ferocious puncher.

[StarshipTrooper]

You might want to check out the career of Bob Fitzsimmons when talking about p4p. He beat 'em up all the way from middles to heavies. Ferocious puncher.

No argument from me, Fitzsimmons is one of my all-time favorite fighters.

Poet

[kamicazze]

i dunno about eberyone els ebut i wanna c roy jones against de la hoya 2 prove who is the best p4p of the 90's! seeing as roy brought trinidad out of retirement how bout michelawski and ottke???

[Brassangel]

Fitz was spectacular.

[sleazyfellow]

best p4p ever? how about the guy who held titles at diffrent weights at the same time: henry armstrong

[Brassangel]

Also, in regards to Ali's jab vs. his opponents:

A smart opponent isn't simply going to throw the jab out there, hoping to score on a guy who's just going to lean out of the way. Ali had a tendency to get busy with his hands when the action was low, and would likely start jabbing first. The wise move is to time one's own jab to counter his. The right side of Ali's face was constantly open. Were Sonny Liston not so old, he probably could have exploited this with his extensive reach and power (and superior jab). Instead, he trained for a 4 round contest and tried to knock Ali's block off.

It does not matter how fast a person is, they can not throw a jab effectively and lean out of the way of a counter at the same time. If he leans, his own punch isn't going to land in mid-throw. If he throws, his right side is available. Now Ali has to rethink his point strategy, probably defaulting to lead right hands. Since that's the hand in the rear position, there's much more time to react or defend, or even close in. Ali would predictably throw the uppercut as a fighter came in, which left the right side of his face wide open for the left hook. This immediately causes Ali to back up and cover, opening his midsection to tenderizing. These methods are how slow plodders like Joe Frazier and Ken Norton exploited Ali's complete inability to truly defend a punch. Furthermore, if Ali's primary focus of attack is neutralized, he's certainly not going to go the body (as he threw maybe 12 body punches in his career). Post exile or not, the difference in Ali's quickness isn't so much that this strategy becomes null and void.

Ali's poor defensive skills should be taken into consideration when formulating a p4p list and his relative location on said list. He suffered from these flaws throughout the majority of his career. Jones may have (and I stress "may"), had a chin problem, but that really only made itself evident in one fight; a rematch from a contest that he had won previously. After that, Jones was simply old. I would go so far as to say that poor defensive skills are far more important than a chin when rating a champion. Especially since a chin isn't something you can do much about in the way of training, whereas a champion is something you train to become.

[Lubutheimmortal]

Also, in regards to Ali's jab vs. his opponents:

A smart opponent isn't simply going to throw the jab out there, hoping to score on a guy who's just going to lean out of the way. Ali had a tendency to get busy with his hands when the action was low, and would likely start jabbing first. The wise move is to time one's own jab to counter his. The right side of Ali's face was constantly open. Were Sonny Liston not so old, he probably could have exploited this with his extensive reach and power (and superior jab). Instead, he trained for a 4 round contest and tried to knock Ali's block off.

It does not matter how fast a person is, they can not throw a jab effectively and lean out of the way of a counter at the same time. If he leans, his own punch isn't going to land in mid-throw. If he throws, his right side is available. Now Ali has to rethink his point strategy, probably defaulting to lead right hands. Since that's the hand in the rear position, there's much more time to react or defend, or even close in. Ali would predictably throw the uppercut as a fighter came in, which left the right side of his face wide open for the left hook. This immediately causes Ali to back up and cover, opening his midsection to tenderizing. These methods are how slow plodders like Joe Frazier and Ken Norton exploited Ali's complete inability to truly defend a punch. Furthermore, if Ali's primary focus of attack is neutralized, he's certainly not going to go the body (as he threw maybe 12 body punches in his career). Post exile or not, the difference in Ali's quickness isn't so much that this strategy becomes null and void.

Ali's poor defensive skills should be taken into consideration when formulating a p4p list and his relative location on said list. He suffered from these flaws throughout the majority of his career. Jones may have (and I stress "may"), had a chin problem, but that really only made itself evident in one fight; a rematch from a contest that he had won previously. After that, Jones was simply old. I would go so far as to say that poor defensive skills are far more important than a chin when rating a champion. Especially since a chin isn't something you can do much about in the way of training, whereas a champion is something you train to become.

Dont you hate it when you type this long ass reply, and post then the net messes up and you lose everything? /Sigh ...

Anyway I'll short my lost reply... . I agree mostly Brass, and good post! I find a good chin really important in ranking p4p because you will be hit when facing a ATG, and you will need to have the chin and heart to battle it out for the win. Jones hasnt to me proved his suspect chin, is indeed average or more. Everyone has a bad day in example Duran vs Hearns, but Duran has prove he can take a beating and still win. Jones to me hasnt proved that his heart, and chin are good. So if he was to fight Henry Armstrong (as meantioned above and he is in my top 10) I feel he would be knocked out if someone like Tarver could. Same goes for Joe Louis, Duran, and ect. I agree chin isnt born, but chin can be balanced by a good heart example Joe Louis.

To Ali's jab I agree but what happens in a p4p fight when his opponent is faster? He would have to find another way to work his game plan (he would most likely), but since his actualy def. skills are in question I think he would take a beating by in a p4p fight from someone would go move forward really fast, and have good hand speed. He isnt getting Ko'd win could lose by dec from getting hit so much. My reason, and I hope it makes sense cause I did a short summary of what I just typed.... .

[Boxing Coach OG]

Yeah, I too like BOB FITZSIMMONS= the original EXPLOSIVE THIN MAN (pardon me Arguello).
My top 10:
1. Roy Jones Jr.
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Jersey Joe Walcott (the first w/the Shuffle, please study him all you boxer/punchers).
4. Sugar Ray Leonard
5. Aaron Pryor
6. Joe Gans
7. Thomas Hearns
8. Naseem Hamed
9. Nicolino Locche
10. Mike Tyson

[Lubutheimmortal]

Yeah, I too like BOB FITZSIMMONS= the original EXPLOSIVE THIN MAN (pardon me Arguello).
My top 10:
1. Roy Jones Jr.
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Jersey Joe Walcott (the first w/the Shuffle, please study him all you boxer/punchers).
4. Sugar Ray Leonard
5. Aaron Pryor
6. Joe Gans
7. Thomas Hearns
8. Naseem Hamed
9. Nicolino Locche
10. Mike Tyson

Robinson is behind Jones? Srry I think a WW Robinson vs a SMW Jones in a p4p fight is a total mismatch. Just read my post here for my reason.