Originally posted by Willie Pep 229
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There are many sides to this, so here is one more.
Premise: A champion takes the fight that makes him the most money, i.e. you fight an opponent who can put asses in the seats.
Today we treat Harry Greb as a lesser god and mistakenly think he was always a popular sensation. He wasn't!
In reviewing the period you suggest 1920-1921 when Dempsey/Carpentier should have fought Greb (your opinion) you will find that Greb had not yet fought in the New York area. (There is one Brooklyn fight listed.)
During this period Greb is a Pittsburgh and New Orleans fighter, with other fights further out in the weeds (mid-west).
Greb's first appearance in New York's Madison Square Garden does not take place until November of '21 against Charley Weinert, but really doesn't draw big attention until March '22 when he defeats Tommy Gibbons. (Scoring no KDs and the press saying he looked too weak to hurt Gibbons.)
It is then two months later that Greb finally becomes a sensation (at some level) when he defeats the undefeated Gene Tunney in May of 1922.
So when you look at the period 1920-1921 Greb isn't really a player on the scene and isn't actually (economically) ready for title shot at a major champion. (Even come 1922 Tunney is actually only the American Light Heavy Weight Champion and not that big a deal himself.)
In regards to the fights you like to point out, Brennan and Miske (and lets add the Gibbons brothers to that list) all took place in Pittsburgh. God, one Brennan fight even took place in Tulsa. These were not big news for their day.
Now in addressing the two fights you point out: Why did Dempsey choose Carpentier? and then, Why did Dempsey choose Gibbons and not Greb?
The first question is an easy one. Carpentier could put asses in the seats. He was a matinee star, touring America and finding himself in Movietone like news reels* with the likes of Mary Pickford, Douglas Fairbanks, and Charlie Chaplin.
Dempsey-Carpentier put 70,000 plus asses in the seats. (1.6 million dollar gate.) At this point Greb still hadn't fought in New York (MSG).
Neither Dempsey-Greb or Carpentier-Greb comes close to that.
Why in god's name would either Dempsey or Carpentier be interested in fighting someone who had not yet had a Garden appearance?
This isn't an athletic competition, this is "prize fighting."
In regards to the 1923 Dempsey-Gibbons fight, the key issue at hand was that Doc Kearns wanted to keep Dempsey away from Tex Rickard and was all over the country beating the bushes for a Dempsey fight, away from New York and thus away from Rickard. Greb became connected to Rickard at this time.
Kearns tried to get a Brennan rematch in Ann Arbor, it failed; Kearns tried to get a Wills fight in Montreal, it failed; Kearns even tried to float a Johnson fight in Mexico City.
Kearns wanted to fight anywhere except New York, with anyone not connected to Rickard.
Enter Shelby MT. At that point bringing the barely known Greb to Montana would have made no sense; they needed a local boy and found one in Tommy Gibbons. (Actually it was Shelby that wanted Gibbons and Kearns said OK).
After that cluster **** of a promotion Dempsey fought one more time in '23. Firpo at the Polo Grounds in front of 80,000 plus spectators.
By the time Dempsey returns to the ring in September 1926 Tunney has defeated Greb four or five times (depending on your opinion of the scoring.) It's Tunney fight then.
Now just to pile-on, lets take a look at Harry Greb. Can you imagine him doing a nation wide tour to promote a fight, hanging out with Chaplin and Mary Pickford?
Greb was unsophisticated and not a 'team player.' He could not be depended on to do the right thing by the promotion.
Even when he finally got a really big fight ('outdoors in a ball park') in the new Yankee Stadium in 1924, he showed up for the fight 15 pounds over the limit, had to cut so much weight that he was sluggish and disappointed the crowd.
Prize fighters have a finite number of big fights in their careers and can't be wasting them on 'maybes.'
In 1921 Harry Greb wasn't ready, he was just a Pittsburgh fighter who couldn't yet put asses in New York seats.
Add to this he was difficult to get along with and couldn't be trusted to do the right thing. IMO Harry Greb pretty much got what he deserved.
You want this to be some kind of argument about 'greatness' as viewed through a 21st Century prism under the belief that these were athletic events obligated to some abstract form of sporting justice. They weren't they were just 'prize fights' with prize being the key word.
The term 'ducked' is so overused on this board. These events have to be put in (contemporaneous/economic) context to be evaluated.
* Movietone actually cam into existence in 1928.
Premise: A champion takes the fight that makes him the most money, i.e. you fight an opponent who can put asses in the seats.
Today we treat Harry Greb as a lesser god and mistakenly think he was always a popular sensation. He wasn't!
In reviewing the period you suggest 1920-1921 when Dempsey/Carpentier should have fought Greb (your opinion) you will find that Greb had not yet fought in the New York area. (There is one Brooklyn fight listed.)
During this period Greb is a Pittsburgh and New Orleans fighter, with other fights further out in the weeds (mid-west).
Greb's first appearance in New York's Madison Square Garden does not take place until November of '21 against Charley Weinert, but really doesn't draw big attention until March '22 when he defeats Tommy Gibbons. (Scoring no KDs and the press saying he looked too weak to hurt Gibbons.)
It is then two months later that Greb finally becomes a sensation (at some level) when he defeats the undefeated Gene Tunney in May of 1922.
So when you look at the period 1920-1921 Greb isn't really a player on the scene and isn't actually (economically) ready for title shot at a major champion. (Even come 1922 Tunney is actually only the American Light Heavy Weight Champion and not that big a deal himself.)
In regards to the fights you like to point out, Brennan and Miske (and lets add the Gibbons brothers to that list) all took place in Pittsburgh. God, one Brennan fight even took place in Tulsa. These were not big news for their day.
Now in addressing the two fights you point out: Why did Dempsey choose Carpentier? and then, Why did Dempsey choose Gibbons and not Greb?
The first question is an easy one. Carpentier could put asses in the seats. He was a matinee star, touring America and finding himself in Movietone like news reels* with the likes of Mary Pickford, Douglas Fairbanks, and Charlie Chaplin.
Dempsey-Carpentier put 70,000 plus asses in the seats. (1.6 million dollar gate.) At this point Greb still hadn't fought in New York (MSG).
Neither Dempsey-Greb or Carpentier-Greb comes close to that.
Why in god's name would either Dempsey or Carpentier be interested in fighting someone who had not yet had a Garden appearance?
This isn't an athletic competition, this is "prize fighting."
In regards to the 1923 Dempsey-Gibbons fight, the key issue at hand was that Doc Kearns wanted to keep Dempsey away from Tex Rickard and was all over the country beating the bushes for a Dempsey fight, away from New York and thus away from Rickard. Greb became connected to Rickard at this time.
Kearns tried to get a Brennan rematch in Ann Arbor, it failed; Kearns tried to get a Wills fight in Montreal, it failed; Kearns even tried to float a Johnson fight in Mexico City.
Kearns wanted to fight anywhere except New York, with anyone not connected to Rickard.
Enter Shelby MT. At that point bringing the barely known Greb to Montana would have made no sense; they needed a local boy and found one in Tommy Gibbons. (Actually it was Shelby that wanted Gibbons and Kearns said OK).
After that cluster **** of a promotion Dempsey fought one more time in '23. Firpo at the Polo Grounds in front of 80,000 plus spectators.
By the time Dempsey returns to the ring in September 1926 Tunney has defeated Greb four or five times (depending on your opinion of the scoring.) It's Tunney fight then.
Now just to pile-on, lets take a look at Harry Greb. Can you imagine him doing a nation wide tour to promote a fight, hanging out with Chaplin and Mary Pickford?
Greb was unsophisticated and not a 'team player.' He could not be depended on to do the right thing by the promotion.
Even when he finally got a really big fight ('outdoors in a ball park') in the new Yankee Stadium in 1924, he showed up for the fight 15 pounds over the limit, had to cut so much weight that he was sluggish and disappointed the crowd.
Prize fighters have a finite number of big fights in their careers and can't be wasting them on 'maybes.'
In 1921 Harry Greb wasn't ready, he was just a Pittsburgh fighter who couldn't yet put asses in New York seats.
Add to this he was difficult to get along with and couldn't be trusted to do the right thing. IMO Harry Greb pretty much got what he deserved.
You want this to be some kind of argument about 'greatness' as viewed through a 21st Century prism under the belief that these were athletic events obligated to some abstract form of sporting justice. They weren't they were just 'prize fights' with prize being the key word.
The term 'ducked' is so overused on this board. These events have to be put in (contemporaneous/economic) context to be evaluated.
* Movietone actually cam into existence in 1928.
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