Rocky Marciano

[hhascup]

** Henry, Tiger Ted is an old man now, must be pushin' 90. Old timers shrink. Look at Jake Lamotta, what, 110lbs? Women's lightweights could take him now, but in his day he was the stud.

Yes, they do shrink, BUT I was told that he was smaller then what is stated on BoxRec.

By the way, Ted is still in amazing shape, at least he was a couple of years ago when I met him. He was born in 1920, and I met him about 5-7 years ago, that would have made him 80-82.

[LondonRingRules]

Yes, they do shrink, BUT I was told that he was smaller then what is stated on BoxRec.

By the way, Ted is still in amazing shape, at least he was a couple of years ago when I met him. He was born in 1920, and I met him about 5-7 years ago, that would have made him 80-82.

** Ring did an excellent interview with Tiger Ted a few years back. For all the wars you know he was in, he looks to be in superior mental and physical shape for his age. Go figure how all that works out, because I sure can't.

[hhascup]

** Ring did an excellent interview with Tiger Ted a few years back. For all the wars you know he was in, he looks to be in superior mental and physical shape for his age. Go figure how all that works out, because I sure can't.

I can't either. George Chuvalo who fought some of the hardest punching Heavyweights in history is also in Great shape, mentally too. I have seen him and my good friend, Chuck Wepner speak many times and there Great.

Last night I Ring Announced the New Jersey Diamond Glove Tournament in South River, and I introduced and then brought Emile Griffith into the ring. He could hardly get into the ring. A couple of months ago I sat next to him at a Ring 8 meeting in New York. Across from him was Gasper Ortega, who he fought twice. He asked me 3 times who that man was. Another time he didn't recognize his former manager and a good friend of mine Howie Albert.

[Hawkins]

If your Talking about Charles, he was well past his prime when he fought Rocky, and LaStarza, most boxing people thought he beat Rocky the 1st time. Let me give you some STATS:

Rocky never beat a BIG Top 10 Heavyweight that was over 200 pounds and stood over 6 foot besides Joe Louis and we all know he was well past his prime.

1. Moore was 5'11" - 188 pounds
2. ****ell was 5'11" - 205 pounds
3. Charles was 6'0" - 185½ & 192½
4. LaStarza was 6'0" - 187 & 184¾ pounds
5. Walcott was 6'0" - 196½ & 197¾
6. Matthews - 5'10¾ - 179 pounds
7. Layne - was 193
8. AND Louis who was 6'2" by BoxRec, and weighed 213¾

Here's somemore:

Of Rocky's 49 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them only 11 times (22.44898%), and 3 of them were return bouts, winning all 11 (22.44898%) of them. He also fought a total of 16 bouts that boxers were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 49 bouts. That's a percentage of only 32.653%.

Of Ali's 61 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 38 times (62.295%), winning 33 (54.098%) of them. He also fought a total of 49 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 61 bouts. That's a percentage of 80.3279%.

Of Louis's 72 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 34 times (47.887%), winning 31 (43.056%) of them. He also fought a total of 54 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 72 bouts. That's a percentage of 76.056%.

Rocky fought boxers with an average pro record of W-29.7 - L-10.16 - D-1.77 for an average winning percentage of 73.48%

Ali fought boxers with an average pro record of W-32.23 - L-5.25 - D-1.2, for an average winning percentage of 85.268595%

Louis fought boxers with an average pro record of W-38.1 - L-10.23 - D-2.6 for an average winning percentage of 77.349364%

I appreciate your stats, however I wasn't talking about his quality of opposition nor if he could deal with people that were bigger. I was merely talking about the fact that he had fought people that were faster and quicker and was able to catch up with them.

[butterfly1964]

No kidding Jim Jeffries was clearly in his prime at 29 when he retired undefeated as Heavyweight champ. And if those desperate biggots wouldn't have dug his 320 lb fat ass up 6 years later to try and beat Johnson (without any warm up fights) he would have remained that way. And yeah, Foreman as well, who was what 28 when he retired for 10 years the first time.

Jim Jeffries himself was a desperate biggot trying for one last payday on Independence day, 1910.

[Underboss]

Jim Jeffries himself was a desperate biggot trying for one last payday on Independence day, 1910.

c'mon butterfly. don't blame jeffries and the others for being biggots, that's how they were raised back then.

[hhascup]

I appreciate your stats, however I wasn't talking about his quality of opposition nor if he could deal with people that were bigger. I was merely talking about the fact that he had fought people that were faster and quicker and was able to catch up with them.

I agree BUT he never faced anyone with the speed of Ali, Patterson or Tyson. Ali was fast with both his hands and feet, Patterson & Tyson were fast with their fists.

I can't see any opponent of Rocky that was as fast with either, plus the power of Tyson.


Lets look at the best boxers he fought:

Rocky fought LaStarza twice (1950 & 1953) and he was very good. A lot of people thought LaStarza beat Rocky in their 1st bout. Rocky would stop him in the return bout.

He also fought Walcott (1952 & 1953) and Charles (both in 1954) twice each. Charles had 90 bouts at that time and he had seen better days.

In his 1st bout with Rocky, Charles fought very well, and it was a lot closer then a lot of people thought it would be and people wanted to see a return go. Rocky stopped Charles in the return bout after his nose was so bad that they were thinking about stopping it..

In the 1st Walcott bout going into the 13th round, the judges had Jersey Joe ahead 7-4, 7-5 and 8-4. Rocky stopped Jersey Joe in the return bout in 1 round.

He only fought another 10 boxers that were ever in the 10 top by Ring at one time or another.

Phil Muscato (December 1949) was last rated in the top 10 in 1948, he fought Rocky the next year after losing 4 in a row and 5 out of his last 6 before boxing Rocky.

Johnny Shkor (September 1950) was 29-18-2 at the time he fought Rocky in 1950. He was last rated in 1947. He just got stopped by Walcott and lost his last 7 of 11 bouts.

Rex Layne (July 1951) had a pro record of 34-1-2 with 24 knockouts going into the bout with Rocky. He was a very good boxer, in fact he was one of the best at that time.

Freddy Beshore (August 1951) was last rated in October 1950, Rocky fought him in August of 1951. He lost 7 of his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky.

Joe Louis (October 1951) who was still good, BUT way past his prime when he fought Marciano. His record was 61-1 with 52 KO's in his 1st 62 bouts. In his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky, Louis was 8-1 with only 3 KO's

Lee Savold (February 1952) was last rated in 1951, Rocky stopped him in 1952. Savold was also stopped 9 times before his bout with Rocky, including one by an aging Joe Louis.

Bernie Reynolds (May 1952), who lost 4 out of his last 6 bouts before boxing Rocky in 1952. Reynolds was past his prime as the last time he was rated was 1949.

Harry Kid Matthews (July 1952) was an excellent boxer with an excellent record, he was 51-0-1 with 36 KO's in his last 52 bouts before he faced Rocky, but he was really was a Light Heavyweight.

Don ****ell (May 1955) beat Matthews 3 times and LaStarza. He was also stopped 6 times before he fought Rocky, including a bout with Randy Turpin, a Middleweight, in which he out weigh Turpin by 12 pounds. He was dropped 3 times in the bout.

Archie Moore (September 1955), he was one of the Greatest Light Heavyweights ever.

So if you go by this, the only boxers that were rated in the top 10 when he fought them were Walcott, Charles and LaStarza twice each, Louis, Moore, Layne, Matthews and ****ell. So that means he fought only 8 boxers, 11 times that were rated in the top 10 at the time he fought them.

[Hawkins]

I agree BUT he never faced anyone with the speed of Ali, Patterson or Tyson. Ali was fast with both his hands and feet, Patterson & Tyson were fast with their fists.

I can't see any opponent of Rocky that was as fast with either, plus the power of Tyson.


Lets look at the best boxers he fought:

Rocky fought LaStarza twice (1950 & 1953) and he was very good. A lot of people thought LaStarza beat Rocky in their 1st bout. Rocky would stop him in the return bout.

He also fought Walcott (1952 & 1953) and Charles (both in 1954) twice each. Charles had 90 bouts at that time and he had seen better days.

In his 1st bout with Rocky, Charles fought very well, and it was a lot closer then a lot of people thought it would be and people wanted to see a return go. Rocky stopped Charles in the return bout after his nose was so bad that they were thinking about stopping it..

In the 1st Walcott bout going into the 13th round, the judges had Jersey Joe ahead 7-4, 7-5 and 8-4. Rocky stopped Jersey Joe in the return bout in 1 round.

He only fought another 10 boxers that were ever in the 10 top by Ring at one time or another.

Phil Muscato (December 1949) was last rated in the top 10 in 1948, he fought Rocky the next year after losing 4 in a row and 5 out of his last 6 before boxing Rocky.

Johnny Shkor (September 1950) was 29-18-2 at the time he fought Rocky in 1950. He was last rated in 1947. He just got stopped by Walcott and lost his last 7 of 11 bouts.

Rex Layne (July 1951) had a pro record of 34-1-2 with 24 knockouts going into the bout with Rocky. He was a very good boxer, in fact he was one of the best at that time.

Freddy Beshore (August 1951) was last rated in October 1950, Rocky fought him in August of 1951. He lost 7 of his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky.

Joe Louis (October 1951) who was still good, BUT way past his prime when he fought Marciano. His record was 61-1 with 52 KO's in his 1st 62 bouts. In his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky, Louis was 8-1 with only 3 KO's

Lee Savold (February 1952) was last rated in 1951, Rocky stopped him in 1952. Savold was also stopped 9 times before his bout with Rocky, including one by an aging Joe Louis.

Bernie Reynolds (May 1952), who lost 4 out of his last 6 bouts before boxing Rocky in 1952. Reynolds was past his prime as the last time he was rated was 1949.

Harry Kid Matthews (July 1952) was an excellent boxer with an excellent record, he was 51-0-1 with 36 KO's in his last 52 bouts before he faced Rocky, but he was really was a Light Heavyweight.

Don ****ell (May 1955) beat Matthews 3 times and LaStarza. He was also stopped 6 times before he fought Rocky, including a bout with Randy Turpin, a Middleweight, in which he out weigh Turpin by 12 pounds. He was dropped 3 times in the bout.

Archie Moore (September 1955), he was one of the Greatest Light Heavyweights ever.

So if you go by this, the only boxers that were rated in the top 10 when he fought them were Walcott, Charles and LaStarza twice each, Louis, Moore, Layne, Matthews and ****ell. So that means he fought only 8 boxers, 11 times that were rated in the top 10 at the time he fought them.

Ok. Are you trying to say in a roundabout way that Marciano is overrated or not very good? I'm not understanding your posting of all of these stats in relation to my original point.

[hhascup]

Ok. Are you trying to say in a roundabout way that Marciano is overrated or not very good? I'm not understanding your posting of all of these stats in relation to my original point.

No I am not saying that. All I am saying is that when you rate someone, you have to take in consideration who they fought as well as their record.

This was the question:

On this day (June 17) Rocky Marciano defeated Ezzard Charles to retain his title. In honor of this anniversary (however small it is) I think I'll start an all Rocky Marciano thread. My main question is how good was he actually. In my opinion he doesn't get enough credit. Many think he was a strong idiot with little talent. I completely disagree. I'm opening up the thread to anything related to the Rock. Comparisons, thoughts, whatever. Enjoy and believe me if you bust on the Rock I'll call you out. LOL

I don't think he was a strong idiot with little talent. He took what he was blessed with, and that's raw power and he beat everyone that he ever fought as a Pro.

All I am doing is giving everyone something else to look at when your trying to rate Rocky or anyone else for that matter.

+ points: His Undefeated record of 49-0 with 43 KO's. Right their he has to be considered an all-time Great.

- points: Is the opponents he fought like I have stated before, which mostly isn't his fault. He beat the best in his era and that is all that can be expected.

[Hawkins]

No I am not saying that. All I am saying is that when you rate someone, you have to take in consideration who they fought as well as their record.

This was the question:



I don't think he was a strong idiot with little talent. He took what he was blessed with, and that's raw power and he beat everyone that he ever fought as a Pro.

All I am doing is giving everyone something else to look at when your trying to rate Rocky or anyone else for that matter.

+ points: His Undefeated record of 49-0 with 43 KO's. Right their he has to be considered an all-time Great.

- points: Is the opponents he fought like I have stated before, which mostly isn't his fault. He beat the best in his era and that is all that can be expected.

Well for the record I wasn't assuming anything I just asked to clarify. I kind of figured you were responding the original question, just wanted to make sure. On a sidenote, I have always been of a mind that Rocky is equally overrated as much as he is underrated.