Rocky Marciano

[StarshipTrooper]

how can you say ezzard charles is better than marciano when charles lost 25 times and rocky lost 0 times and rocky had an 88% ko rate no bum can knock 43 people out when you only fight 49 times

Because almost all those losses came after Charles was shot. He hung around to long. He may very well have been THE all-time greatest Light Heavyweight.

That being said, Marciano IS an all-time great. He loses points and positioning mostly from his lack of competition. His best opponents where Ezzard Charles, a Light Heavyweight AND past his prime; Joe Walcott 40 years old and past his prime; Archie Moore, a Light Heavyweight, over 40 and past his prime; and Joe Louis, 38 and WAY past his prime.

Poet

[Hawkins]

What alot of people don't know is that Marciano primarily retired because his manager, Al Weill, was stealing him blind in their end of the split and the only way for Rocky to get out of the contract was to retire.

However the big BUT was that Rocky fully intended to return to the ring. As a matter of fact about 5 years later when Floyd lost the title to Ingemar Rocky went into serious training to make a comeback against Johansson but that never materialized because Patterson regained the title.

It's true Rocky had a back injury from playing with his daughter, he was throwing her up in the air and ended up hurting his back. They used the injury angle as a way of covering his true reasons - getting away frem Weill.

[Jim Jeffries]

** Arch, Arch, Arch, you seem to have some **** retentiveness in sore need of a good laxative. Then read about Jeffries, Tunney, Foreman, and others. Now, run along to the pharmacy, and remember to wait UNTIL you make it back home before dispensing lest you be disposing prematurely!

No kidding Jim Jeffries was clearly in his prime at 29 when he retired undefeated as Heavyweight champ. And if those desperate biggots wouldn't have dug his 320 lb fat ass up 6 years later to try and beat Johnson (without any warm up fights) he would have remained that way. And yeah, Foreman as well, who was what 28 when he retired for 10 years the first time.

[Wiley Hyena]

God. I came back over here to history to get away from those angry bozos in non stop boxing, and lo and behold run into Archie Leach. lol

He has a valid point about Ezzard in spite of it. He was pound for pound great. But, Marciano was the real thing. Ferdie Pacheco says the late 50s was "a boxing world ruled by Rocky Marciano." I guess you can find something to criticise about any fighter...in Marciano's case it evidently is his competition. Well I say I've never seen any era that did not contain quality competition. You want to now single out Marciano's time in which to make that complaint? You see the argument doesn't follow. The fact is that the Rock simply blasted people out in such a dominant way as to make most of them look second rate. I believe this to be the case. He was one of the top 5 heavies any way you look at it. He's top 5 for his undefeated record alone.

And a last thought. Jeffries retired undefeated in his prime. Hell, he was never even knocked down. I guess you can see from my moniker that I highly rank Jeffries in the big list. I'd pit him against anybody the sport has ever seen. But, being as this thread is about Marciano, I'll stop with the Jeffries' jawing.

[them_apples]

Rocky was good, but I think If he fought Liston he would have lost. Rocky was just to slow for the competition that was yet to come.

[Hawkins]

Rocky was good, but I think If he fought Liston he would have lost. Rocky was just to slow for the competition that was yet to come.

I strongly disagree. Rocky fought two ultra slick, very quick fighters and beat them both. Roland LaStarza and Ezzard Charles. Both of these guys where what the old-time boxing journalists would call slicksters. Great boxers who rely on speed, timing and counter punching to be successful.

Rocky was able to beat keep up with LaStarza and ultimately win a decision in the first fight. In second he eventually walked him down and knocked him out. Some people will argue that LaStarza was slipping in their second fight but I still stand by the fact that he was still a very good heavyweight fighter who got by with his boxing, quickness and counter punching.

Rocky also had a very hard fight with Charles the first time around. He was also able to keep up with Charles and make the fight pretty good. He also won a decision in this one. In the second it was fairly close, I thought Rocky was losing personally, and was in danger of being stopped because of the bad cut on Rock's nose. However he finally caught up with Ezzard and put him down for the count.

So using these two examples, a very slick heavyweight and an extremely slick former lightheavyweight, how would Rocky not be able to hang with faster competition?

[hhascup]

I strongly disagree. Rocky fought two ultra slick, very quick fighters and beat them both. Roland LaStarza and Ezzard Charles. Both of these guys where what the old-time boxing journalists would call slicksters. Great boxers who rely on speed, timing and counter punching to be successful.

Rocky was able to beat keep up with LaStarza and ultimately win a decision in the first fight. In second he eventually walked him down and knocked him out. Some people will argue that LaStarza was slipping in their second fight but I still stand by the fact that he was still a very good heavyweight fighter who got by with his boxing, quickness and counter punching.

Rocky also had a very hard fight with Charles the first time around. He was also able to keep up with Charles and make the fight pretty good. He also won a decision in this one. In the second it was fairly close, I thought Rocky was losing personally, and was in danger of being stopped because of the bad cut on Rock's nose. However he finally caught up with Ezzard and put him down for the count.

So using these two examples, a very slick heavyweight and an extremely slick former lightheavyweight, how would Rocky not be able to hang with faster competition?

In Rocky's 1st bout with LaStarza, most people thought Roland won. Here's
an Interview with Roland LaStarza:



On fighting Rocky Marciano: "I won the first fight. Everyone thought I won the first fight except the referee. One judge scored it for me, the ref and the other judge gave it to Marciano. All the newspaper guys gave me the decision.


"The second fight, ruined me. It was easy at first. Then in maybe the sixth round I blocked a punch with my left arm and my left was gone. I blocked one of his right hands and that was it. I hurt that arm in training and when I blocked that punch I damaged blood vessels in my arm. I stood there and took a beating until the 11th.


"If I had one word to describe Rocky it would be relentless. I would throw a right hand, he would throw a right hand. But the difference was Rocky would throw 10. He didn't hit me the hardest, but he hit me the most often. Don't get me wrong, Rocky was a great fighter. He was tough and he never stopped throwing punches."

Also, Ted Lowry took him the distance twice. In their 1st bout, the local newspaper had Lowry winning six rounds to four. ("Tiger Ted Lowry by the Tale" The Sweet Science Jan. 16, 2006) Ted weighed only 177-3/4 pounds in their 1st bout and just over 180 in the return go, and his Pro record at the time he fought Rocky was 59-48-9 and 62-56-10. I met Lowry a couple of years ago and noticed that he was a small man. BoxRec, where I am one of the editors, list him at 5'10", BUT he was shorter then that.

[Hawkins]

In Rocky's 1st bout with LaStarza, most people thought Roland won. Here's
an Interview with Roland LaStarza:



On fighting Rocky Marciano: "I won the first fight. Everyone thought I won the first fight except the referee. One judge scored it for me, the ref and the other judge gave it to Marciano. All the newspaper guys gave me the decision.


"The second fight, ruined me. It was easy at first. Then in maybe the sixth round I blocked a punch with my left arm and my left was gone. I blocked one of his right hands and that was it. I hurt that arm in training and when I blocked that punch I damaged blood vessels in my arm. I stood there and took a beating until the 11th.


"If I had one word to describe Rocky it would be relentless. I would throw a right hand, he would throw a right hand. But the difference was Rocky would throw 10. He didn't hit me the hardest, but he hit me the most often. Don't get me wrong, Rocky was a great fighter. He was tough and he never stopped throwing punches."

Also, Ted Lowry took him the distance twice. In their 1st bout, the local newspaper had Lowry winning six rounds to four. ("Tiger Ted Lowry by the Tale" The Sweet Science Jan. 16, 2006) Ted weighed only 177-3/4 pounds in their 1st bout and just over 180 in the return go, and his Pro record at the time he fought Rocky was 59-48-9 and 62-56-10. I met Lowry a couple of years ago and noticed that he was a small man. BoxRec, where I am one of the editors, list him at 5'10", BUT he was shorter then that.

I've read that many times, that alot of people thought LaStarza won. He was a very good boxer and some thought he would have been champ had Rocky not been around. As for the Lowry bouts, I've never seen him fight let alone his fight with Rocky to make any kind of intelligent discussion on it.

My point, however, was that Rocky was able to deal with people who were alot faster than he was. He beat two of the fastest in the heavyweight division at the time.

[hhascup]

If your Talking about Charles, he was well past his prime when he fought Rocky, and LaStarza, most boxing people thought he beat Rocky the 1st time. Let me give you some STATS:

Rocky never beat a BIG Top 10 Heavyweight that was over 200 pounds and stood over 6 foot besides Joe Louis and we all know he was well past his prime.

1. Moore was 5'11" - 188 pounds
2. ****ell was 5'11" - 205 pounds
3. Charles was 6'0" - 185½ & 192½
4. LaStarza was 6'0" - 187 & 184¾ pounds
5. Walcott was 6'0" - 196½ & 197¾
6. Matthews - 5'10¾ - 179 pounds
7. Layne - was 193
8. AND Louis who was 6'2" by BoxRec, and weighed 213¾

Here's somemore:

Of Rocky's 49 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them only 11 times (22.44898%), and 3 of them were return bouts, winning all 11 (22.44898%) of them. He also fought a total of 16 bouts that boxers were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 49 bouts. That's a percentage of only 32.653%.

Of Ali's 61 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 38 times (62.295%), winning 33 (54.098%) of them. He also fought a total of 49 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 61 bouts. That's a percentage of 80.3279%.

Of Louis's 72 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 34 times (47.887%), winning 31 (43.056%) of them. He also fought a total of 54 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 72 bouts. That's a percentage of 76.056%.

Rocky fought boxers with an average pro record of W-29.7 - L-10.16 - D-1.77 for an average winning percentage of 73.48%

Ali fought boxers with an average pro record of W-32.23 - L-5.25 - D-1.2, for an average winning percentage of 85.268595%

Louis fought boxers with an average pro record of W-38.1 - L-10.23 - D-2.6 for an average winning percentage of 77.349364%

[LondonRingRules]

I met Lowry a couple of years ago and noticed that he was a small man. BoxRec, where I am one of the editors, list him at 5'10", BUT he was shorter then that.

** Henry, Tiger Ted is an old man now, must be pushin' 90. Old timers shrink. Look at Jake Lamotta, what, 110lbs? Women's lightweights could take him now, but in his day he was the stud.