Ali interviews Frazier in August of 1970

[butterfly1964]

This is from Ali's autobiography, The Greatest -- My Own Story, written in 1975. Ali and Frazier have multiple conversations in Frazier's car, and Ali recorded them on a tape recorder to put in his book.

Enjoy!!!

[butterfly1964]

ALI: You got good days ahead, man. You gotta fight Bobby Foster. That's gonna be some good money. People say, "Well, Foster's fast. He hits hard; he don't get hit easy; his arms are long; he's got a jab." With all that build-up, you whip him easy. That'll be a easy payday and you still ain't hurting the Heavyweight Division. You still got them heavyweights left.

FRAZIER: Yeah, yeah!

ALI: You still got Mac Foster coming up; he gonna be a million-dollar gate. You got George Foreman, that be a million-dollar gate. And by the time that gets ripe, they gonna be a couple more of them, see? So you got it made, if you just play it cool. And in the meantime, you can be getting some action and some big money. I wonder why Bobby Foster agreed to it.

FRAZIER: Well, you dig, Bob getting old. Must don't give a damn.

ALI: He wants to get his last good payday, too.

FRAZIER: Right, right.

ALI: You ain't really scared of Bob Foster?

FRAZIER: In no way. He lost to every heavy he fought. Zora Folley, Terrell, Jones -- all beat him. I'd wreck him.

ALI: But tell the truth, now, man. If you fought me, wouldn't you be scared?

FRAZIER: No, man. Honest to God.

ALI: You really wouldn't be scared?

FRAZIER: No kinda way.

ALI: I mean my fast left jab, and the way I dance?

FRAZIER: Noooooo! I'd get close to you. They talk about how fast you is, moving away. But you gonna find out how fast I am moving in.

ALI: You remember that time you came to see me fight Zora Folley? You was on your way up. You wanted to learn from me.

FRAZIER: We all have a time for learning.

ALI: You believe you know enough now to fight me?

FRAZIER: Hell, yes! Maybe even if I didn't know enough, I would never turn you down. Any man that turn a man down in his profession, he's less than a man.

ALI: Not necessarily. I mean, the man could just be wise and biding his time. But like, if you ducked me now, you'd think "I'm less than a man," 'cause you The Champ and you supposed to be ready. But what I'm saying is, do you think you could decision me, or do you really think you could stop me before fifteen?

FRAZIER: Sure I think I could stop you before fifteen.

ALI: You really do?

FRAZIER: I really do. You see, the kinda stuff I'm gonna put on you, man, you ain't had to dig yet. You ain't never seen this before. You understand?

ALI: It's impossible for you to get away from my jab. Impossible!

FRAZIER: See, them other cats out there let you have your own way. Just like they let me let me have my way--

ALI: You take your way!

FRAZIER: I take my way, right. But they let you have your way. They let you jump around the ring, and dance and all that--

ALI: You couldn't stop me from jumping around thering and dancing. What you gonna do?

FRAZIER: I'd get right dead on you! Every time you breathe, you be breathing right down on my head.

ALI: You be tired after five, six rounds of scuffling.

FRAZIER: You be tired trying to get away, too. Running and jabbing and ducking and dodging . . . you be tired, too.

ALI: No, seriously, man, you really think you can whip me? You know, somebody told me you was glad I'm not allowed to fight. Murray Worner -- you know, the guy who staged that fake Marciano fight? He said you didn't dare get in the ring with me.

FRAZIER: No, man. No! Look. I wish it was in my power to give you a license. I would give you my own license if they'd let me fight you. That's how bad I want you.

ALI (long pause): But I really believe you afraid of me.

FRAZIER (long pause): No, I sure ain't.

ALI: I really believe that after I get in good shape, and after I get trim . . . You had Quarry and Ellis talking about how they wasn't gonna run and the press played it up.

FRAZIER: So in other words you gonna run a little bit, too, huh?

ALI: I'm gonna dance and move like Sugar Ray. It's impossible for you to whip a heavyweight Sugar Ray with your style, man.

FRAZIER: I been up against real race horses out there. But I whip 'em down to a slow trot. I put quicksand under their feet.

ALI: I gotta admit you good, but I'm the fastest. Fastest in the history of the whole world.

FRAZIER: Maybe, maybe moving away. But I'm the fastest moving in.

ALI: Let me tell you the way I would have whipped you, man. Now, in the first place, you don't have no jab.

FRAZIER (aghast, almost stops car): I don't have a jab?

ALI: Keep driving! Watch it! No, you don't have no jab.

FRAZIER: Man, I'd tear your head off with a jab! I'd hit you with a jab like a machine gun.

ALI: Look, Joe. Let me be frank with you. What you must realize is what you have riding against you if you ever fought me: you'd fight the two-time National Golden Gloves Champion--

FRAZIER: Hold it!

ALI: Let me finish!

FRAZIER: Now, hold it! You are two-time champ, but what about me?

ALI: You wasn't no Golden Gloves Champion.

FRAZIER: You kidding?

ALI: Not Golden Gloves. What you ever win? The New York title?

FRAZIER: I won the New York title, right. And then I won it here in the East for '62, '63, and '64.

ALI (contemptuously): Local titles. I know you an Olympic Champion like me, but here's what you must realize. I'm a two-time National AAU Champion.

FRAZIER: What's more, I was a heavyweight.

ALI: I defeated --

FRAZIER: You was light-heavy!

ALI: No, I was heavyweight.

FRAZIER: You won in the Light-Heavy Division, man. I was always heavy. I used to weigh about two-thirty when I was about fifteen, sixteen years old. I went in the gym to lose weight. That's when I went in and found out I had a punch. You know, they had like seventeen heavyweights in the gym when I started. I ran 'em all out. I used to tote them steers when I worked in a kosher slaughterhouse. Then I'd come to the gym and chase everybody out of there--

ALI: Your running-out days are over.

ALI: Here's what you must realize. I fought Sonny Liston twice, when he was at his best. Then I beat Fast Floyd Patterson. I beat the Champion of Germany, Mildenberger. All these title defenses. Henry Cooper, Brian London . . .

FRAZIER: What you want me to do?

ALI: And I fought Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams . . .

FRAZIER: Which one you want me to fight?

ALI: Leaving off myself and you, who you think would be the best two to fight the all-time title?

FRAZIER: Oh, like Joe Louis and Jack Johnson.

ALI: That's who I think.

[BKM-]

Sounds interesting. You forgot to post the link/video, though.

[butterfly1964]

Sounds interesting. You forgot to post the link/video, though.

There's no video. Ali used a tape recorder to record the conversations.

[butterfly1964]

Here's another piece of the conversation.

FRAZIER: Well, I hope you do get back. But, man, you ain't gonna do no whipping. Not on me. I hope there'll be no hard feelings.

ALI: You mean after that showdown? Wherever it comes--

FRAZIER: Will you please let me talk . . . now?

ALI: Well, we're two champions and both of us can't talk at once. And we just gonna have to be equal. I can't let you outtalk me.

FRAZIER: You done expressed your feelings. Let me express mine. Now, you right about no hard feelings. All the fellows I destroy, I don't have no hard feelings. After I whip your ass, I'll buy you some ice cream. (Sees Ali about to cut in) Let me talk! You finished now? I got no hard feelings with you here or no other place. But when we get in the ring, you on your own.

ALI: You be on your own, too.

FRAZIER: That's the only way I know how to be.

ALI: And if we can't get along, let's get it on.

FRAZIER: We'll get it on. Ain't no doubt about that. Because once that bell rings . . . See you get out there and try to psych them guys. Me, I'm different. I'm the greatest psych artist ever put on earth. You outpsych Houdini easier than me --

ALI: Just for that smarty remark, I'm gonna make a prediction. I'm gonna tell you what would happen if I ever fought you.

FRAZIER: Be careful now, be careful. Don't get carried away.

ALI: I want this to go on record. I'm gonna lay out the blueprint of the first five rounds--

FRAZIER: Who say--

ALI: Let me talk! Then you say what you gonna do. Now the first round--Dong! I'm coming out but ain't gonna do nothing. Just gonna show you off as being a amateur. I'm not gonna throw one punch. I'm gonna dance and I'm gonna hold my guard down beside my hips. And I'm gonna dance and move like I did with Floyd Patterson. And you won't even get in one punch. I'm gonna let you win that round. Then, second round--Dong! I'm coming out fast, but I'm not gonna shoot nothing but left jabs. And my right hand is gonna be down by my side. Not even gonna hold my right hand up for protection. Nothing but left jabs, nothing but left jabs, nothing but left jabs . . . the third round--Dong! I'm coming out. I'm putting the footwork together and I'm putting the jabs together and I'm putting the right crosses together and the left hooks--

FRAZIER (explodes): ****! According to you, you done won the fight already--

ALI: And I'm not gonna miss a left jab that round. Maybe with one or two I might graze you. But all those jabs gonna be solid jabs. That night at the ticket booth, I want the people to pick up the program, and it be written out -- round by round what I'm gonna do. Like when you read a menu for a eight-course meal. When you go to a restaurant, or if you go to a show, or when you go to one of your rock shows. Nothng will be printed on the card that night but the formula of how I'm gonna fight you. And after that fifth round--

FRAZIER (can't stand it any longer): Wait, wait--

ALI: You say what you gonna say when I'm through. Lemme finish getting in mine . . . don't be getting scared.

FRAZIER: Man, scared?

ALI: Yeah. Now, in the fifth round--

FRAZIER (angry): This fight has got to come off! It's coming off!

ALI: Listen, the fifth round--

FRAZIER: Why go further? You done beat me up already.

ALI: Naw, I haven't knocked you out. The fourth round I'm gonna tie you up.

FRAZIER: Who say it's gonna last that long?

ALI: Then the fifth round--

FRAZIER: How you gonna do all that?

ALI: I'm gonna right-cross you. And I'm gonna be teaching and talking to you. Telling you the history of your life.

FRAZIER: Awww, man, you done won the whole thing.

ALI: And after that fifth round I'll invent new punches. Now what do you have to say?

FRAZIER (after long silence): You done beat up everybody in the whole ring, plus the referee. Now where I'm gonna be at when you be doing all these things? Counting my fingers?

ALI: You be trying to throw everything, and it ain't gonna land.

FRAZIER: Clay, it ain't gonna be that way.

ALI (shrugs): You have a right to say that. I have a right to say what I wanna say.

FRAZIER: All right, now. I'm gonna tell you what I feel about it. You gonna run for about, maybe, two. Then the sixth round, that would be your end--

ALI: No! Listen, don't you try any predicting.

FRAZIER: I'm telling you!

ALI: Be sure you can back it up! Your behind will be mine in round nine!

FRAZIER: Ohhh, now I see. You done gone past six. When we get to round four, ain't gonna be no more. That gonna be it. You be wore out.

[BKM-]

Nah it's cool now. You just posted the whole thing after, so i got confused.

Very entertaining to read. I wish they kept this kind of friendship, but too bad Ali had to mess that up, and Frazier had to stay bitter forever.
Do you have more of these type of stories you can post from books? They're really interesting man.

[butterfly1964]

Here's another piece.

FRAZIER: Singing is just like a training thing. Know what I mean? I work up that kind of sweat, singing or training. Singing was just another routine, training . . . I'd get ready like that for you, 'cause you good. You can punch from either hand. But I don't think you got too much of a hook.

ALI: Oh, no?

FRAZIER: No hook at all. You got a good right hand. I see that, but you can't hook, 'cause your arm's out too long. A man can't hook so much if his hand's long. Now, take me, I'm made for a hook for one big simple reason. My left arm is an L. See? You didn't know that, huh? It's natural. It won't straighten out. This as far as I can stretch that hand out here, see? And I just come in like this. (Takes hand off wheel and hooks) It's automatically a hook. Just turn 'em right over. Instead of having to draw all the way back, I just turn it over. (He demonstrates)

ALI (brushes it off): I got the answer to your hook. I lean backwards and move--

FRAZIER: But I hook to the body first. I get the head another time.

ALI: Man, you ain't gonna get the body. 'Cause soon as you start working the body, I'm gonna shoot for your head--quick! If you close to hitting my body with your short arms, I'm gonna WHIP! WHIP! WHIP! WHIP! Right on you. You won't get my body 'less you in a clinch, or tying to hold me.

FRAZIER: I ain't never held on to a man outta twenty-six fights.

ALI: If you relying on a knockout, you gonna be in trouble. You be losing round after round after round. And onliest way you gonna get me is to knock me out, and you will not do that!

FRAZIER: Oh, you gonna have to go.

ALI: You must think my being inactive for three long years slowed me down a little--

FRAZIER: Look! You ain't hurt a bit! I don't want no excuses. Ain't nothing wrong with you. Not a thing. You just had a little rest; that's good for you. Don't come up with that -- "I been out of action for a while, it slowed me up." That rest made you more stronger.

ALI: That's what you'd tell people?

FRAZIER: That's the truth, and I know it.

ALI: Look. Let's be realistic. Suppose I'm never allowed to fight. But still I want to keep my body fit and sharp. Now, you needs a good fast man to keep you sharp because you go through so many sparring partners. Wouldn't you like to have the type sparring partner that could rumble with you four and five good rounds a day until you got enough? I mean, where you don't have to keep changing 'em 'cause they can't stand up to you?

FRAZIER: That's good . . .

ALI: I mean, wouldn't you like to have a good sparring partner that could tag you? And you can tag him, and he ain't gonna quit on you? I need a job.

FRAZIER: You don't need no goddamn job.

ALI: Don't tell nobody; it's between us, but I do. How much you pay?

FRAZIER: How much you want?

ALI: Couple hundred a week. That means eight hundred by the end of the month.

FRAZIER: ****! You want a whole lot.

ALI: Well, if things get where I think I ain't gonna be allowed to fight any more, if it ever gets obvious that I'm through fighting, I'd want to go on and spar with you. But if we were ever gonna fight, I wouldn't do it 'cause it would hurt the gate. Like people seeing me beat you around the gym, or you beat me around the gym, or we get too friendly and kill a gate. But if I ever get--

FRAZIER: First, I like to know, who is gonna be the "sparring partner"?

ALI: Me! I'll be your sparring partner. I'm not fighting. I just said . . .

FRAZIER: Sound like you want to be the main event.

ALI: No. You heard what I was saying.

FRAZIER: I heard you!

ALI: If I get--

FRAZIER: I heard what you said, but to hear you switch it around like I would be the sparring partner . . .

ALI: Well, we get a big special gym. And I'm just gonna be your traveling sparring partner. If they won't let me fight no more, and won't give me a license, and--

FRAZIER: Okay.

ALI: Right. And we have our own rumbles every day. And then people will be able to look at sparring sessions and tell who would have won if we'd ever fought. Right?

FRAZIER: Well, that's good, too.

ALI: That's all I'm saying.

FRAZIER: All right.

ALI: Would they try to put me outta the gym if I show you up?

FRAZIER: I own the gym. I wanna keep you sharp in case you get your license back. I don't want no excuse, I'll make sure you get a personal key from me.

ALI: Everybody got little weaknesses. What's yours?

FRAZIER: My car. But I like to have it built the way I want it.

ALI: Ain't nothing wrong with that. Got something else to tell ya. More advice.

FRAZIER: Yeah?

ALI: Your motorcycle. Get off that damn motorcycle. I know you like it, so keep it. But ride it two A.M. in the morning. Maybe five A.M. in the morning. Ride it around the park. Don't be in no everyday traffic, darting in and out on the expressway . . . ZIP-ZIP, BRRRR-BRRR . . . a quick takeoff, showing off like you do.

FRAZIER: You got nerve to accuse me of showing off!

ALI: Look, man, one fall, splint one knee, one smash, and there goes millions of dollars. All for that little old fifteen-hundred-dollar motorcycle? Now, I'm just like you. I love motorcycles. But think about your daughter, your children, your bones. And just think about millions of people wanting to watch you fight, all over the world. Two and three million dollars at one gate.

ALI: No. If you like your bike, keep your bike--in the garage or something. Every now and then you might want to start your motor and you might say, "I'm going to the store." Take your time, you know. Watch yourself. Look, seventy-five miles per hour, no faster. One blowout, a locked rim'll throw you, anything. Even forty's too fast to fall on.

FRAZIER: Thirty's too goddamn fast to fall on. I fell doing about thirty miles, man, and got all the bark tore off my ass.

ALI: Yeah?

FRAZIER: See down there? My leg twisted in.

ALI (shudders): That be awful if something like that happened now, before I get a chance to whip you in the ring. If that happened, you know what you ought to do? Get a gun and shoot yourself. Picture yourself up in a hospital and it's all in the news . . . "Joe Frazier leg broke in motorcycle spill. Ali-Frazier fight canceled. Ten-billion-dollar gate was predicted" And then the doctor comes into your room and says, "Sorry, Joe. No more."

FRAZIER (visualizes it, shakes his head): "We got to operate."

ALI: Yessir. "We have to take that leg off, Joe, and there'll be a lifetime limp in the other one." Joe, man, you'd look at yourself and say, "I'm a fool."

FRAZIER: Boo-hoo, booooo-hoo.

ALI: You ain't taking this serious. I'm trying to help you.

FRAZIER: Go ahead, go ahead.

ALI: Take that motorcycle and say, "Motorcycle, you a curse to me, man, you a curse. I got shows to do, I got foxes to see, I got too much at stake. And if I ever ride you, it's gonna be at four A.M. in the morning."

FRAZIER (sighs): That sure was a lesson to me.

ALI: And I'll tell you something else . . . Floyd Patterson was a real champion the way he carried hisself.

FRAZIER: Patterson? He didn't impress me no way. I could whip him with no legs.

ALI: Slow up, man! We coming near New York! Slow up!

FRAZIER (peering ahead): There's a hole wide enough for this Caddy. Let's get right on in there, come on, baby. Come on! What was you saying?

ALI: Slow up!

FRAZIER: Before you said that . . .

ALI: I was telling you some things that I know was right. Archie Moore was a real champion. So was Sugar Ray. Now you are known for being the best in the world. Now, here's what you gotta do. You gotta dress accordingly. When a person see Joe Frazier, they should be looking at somebody more important than the President of the United States. Like you were the President of the World. Nixon only runs the country. Now, what you got on is pretty for the stage, but it's not as pretty as a black suit.

FRAZIER: I'm casual and lounging now.

ALI: I seen pimps dress like this. They gonna look at you and respect you, but not like they would if you dressed up in a double-breasted suit with a vest, like you worth four, five million.

FRAZIER: I stay cleaner than the Board of Health, man.





Continued on the next post.

[butterfly1964]

Here's the rest of the previous piece.

ALI: But like children and kids wear pink suits and white shoes, and racetrack jackets, like sometimes I notice you do. You a Southerner like me and we Southerners dress like that . . . like some of your friends who sing with you. But notice the hipper dudes. Notice how they dress. Get a cat just like I did, to put some clothes together for you. And then say, "Man, what should I wear? What's best with this? What's the latest shirt? What's the latest ties?" And the darker your clothes look, you look more sophisticated. You look real dignified. Right now I'm dressed like a Senator would be dressed. Like the way Floyd Patterson carries hisself, the way he dresses. He's quiet, the way I wish I could be. I talk a lot. He act like The Champion. Ever seen Patterson, the way he talks? Real dignified?

FRAZIER: I told you, I don't want to be no Patterson, no kind of way.

ALI: If you check it out, George Foreman is not a hero with black people just because he waved the American flag at the Olympics. George Foreman carried that flag 'cause he was a brainwashed black super-patriot. But John Carlos and Tommie Smith, they held up their arms in the sky; their image will go down in history! They stood tall with that black glove salute! Carlos, he's at my house now. I want you to meet him.

FRAZIER: Yeah? When?

ALI: Let me finish. I got other tips I want to give yu. I ain't envious of you, as you know.

ALI: So anyway, I like what I'm doing. I was happy to see Ellis get his thing; I was happy to see you get yours, and I'm happy to see you win the whole thing. But I was glad you whipped Ellis. I helped Ellis get everything he got, and he ain't mentioned my name nowhere.

FRAZIER (quietly): Well, that's the kinda guy we called a Tom. Lets everyone else talk for him.

ALI: So I was glad to see you whip Ellis.

FRAZIER (thoughtfully): Of all the guys I fought, I was special glad I whipped three guys. Ellis was one. Buster Mathis was another one.

ALI: How long ago you fought him?

FRAZIER: In '68.

ALI (also thoughtfully): I was in a ****** meeting in Hartford, Connecticut, when it happened, teaching and preaching. Somebody come in and said: "Frazier just stopped Mathis!" I'd just got through lecturing and they announced the news. He put something on ya for a while, though, didn't he?

FRAZIER: Didn't do a thing to me.

ALI: He hurt ya, didn't he? First few rounds--

FRAZIER: Clay. I give Mathis one round. I think it was the sixth or seventh round. Them other rounds he was out there dancing, getting hisself tired, like you gonna do. That's the way you gonna do.

ALI: I got some news for you. You never met nothing like you gonna meet me, Joe Frazier.

FRAZIER: Well, I agree with that. I hope not.

ALI: Joe Frazier, you just the Olympic kid who got a break 'cause I stepped aside.

FRAZIER: I was gonna take my break if you didn't step aside.

ALI: You was gonna take it?

FRAZIER: Yes, I was. Gonna smash you right dead on your ashcan.

ALI: My ashcan?

FRAZIER: Yessir. And then you gonna ask, "What happen'?"

ALI: I was gonna ask you why you ain't got no modesty.

ALI: What would you do if the police slapped you? Can you street-fight if you had to?

FRAZIER: Man, what?

ALI: Can you street fight?

FRAZIER: Man, I kill a monkey in the street.

ALI: Think you can whip me in the street?

FRAZIER: Anywhere, man.

ALI: The way you talk to white folks, ever have any trouble in the South, Joe?

FRAZIER: You mean after I become Champ?

ALI: Before.

FRAZIER: I whipped some ass -- you always gotta do that. One of 'em called me a ni*ger and I called him a cracker and he didn't like it. Followed me all over town until night came. Then, when I get to the right spot, I let him catch up. Gawwd A'mighty! Remind me of my old Ziggy fight.

ALI: Ziggy? Who's Ziggy?

FRAZIER: Dave Zyglewicz -- Texas. Remember the one I fought just before I fought Folley?

ALI: Oh, yeah. How long did that last?

FRAZIER: Not quite a minute . . . wasn't a round.

ALI: Was he scared?

FRAZIER: Yeah, he was scared. He started turning four, five different colors. I said, "What color is he, anyway?" He went through white, orange, pink, red . . . I said, "Wonder what color he gonna be." When we got in the ring, he mess around and touch me somehow, and goddamn! When he touched me, I think he got me a little mad. So I reached all the way back home. I went home and got me a hook on him--

ALI: Wow, you carry that much dough in your wallet?

FRAZIER: Four, five hundred. Need some?

ALI: How about a hundred? I may stay overnight.

FRAZIER: Yeah, okay.

ALI: Pay you next week. (Looks at the hundred-dollar bill) I owe Joe Frazier a hundred dollars. Never thought the day would come when I'd owe Joe Frazier one hundred dollars.

FRAZIER: I'll stop over here, let you out.

ALI: We don't want to be seen too much together, you know.

FRAZIER: Yeah. They'll think we're buddies. That'll be bad for the gate.

ALI: Yeah. Ain't nobody gonna pay nothing to see two buddies.

With that, I reached down and flicked off the tape.

"All this is going in my book, you know," I said.

"Just don't change a damn thing," Joe shot back.






That's all I have. I hope you all enjoyed it!

[butterfly1964]

Nah it's cool now. You just posted the whole thing after, so i got confused.

Very entertaining to read. I wish they kept this kind of friendship, but too bad Ali had to mess that up, and Frazier had to stay bitter forever.
Do you have more of these type of stories you can post from books? They're really interesting man.

When they were by themselves, they got along fine. But when the cameras started rolling, then Ali had to turn on the showmanship and became a different person to Frazier, lol!

[butterfly1964]

bump.........